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NOTE: You may notice textual errors throughout this document, many of which have been left intact from the original text. Should you want to investigate the integrity of the original report, please refer to the original two printed volumes containing the official report of the proceedings and debates.


WEDNESDAY, 10:30 a. m., March 6, 1895.

The Convention was called to order by Mr. Goodwin, of Salt Lake.

Mr. GOODWIN. Gentlemen, the Chairman pro tem. is ill this morning and he has done me the honor to ask me to rap around in his chair until you can do better.

The Reverend R. G. McNiece, of the First Presbyterian Church, offered prayer.
The secretary then called the roll showing the following members present:
C. P. Lemmon
Low, William
Low, Peter
Low, J. P.
Murdock, Beaver

Evans, Utah
Evans, Weber
Kimball, Salt Lake
Kimball, Weber
Larsen, L.
Murdock, Wasatch
Murdock, Summit
Peterson, Grand
Peterson, Sanpete
Robinson, Kane
Robison, Wayne
Van Horne

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. Chairman, I desired to be excused for to-day.

Mr. RICHARDS. Mr. Chairman, I also desire to make the same request. I have a case on trial requiring my attention.

Messrs. Evans and Richards were excused.

The SECRETARY pro tem. Mr. Chairman, I have a request from Mr. Whitney asking to be excused because he was called to Provo on account of sickness.

Mr. ADAMS. I wish to ask to have Mr. Strevell excused. He was unable to come this morning.

The CHAIRMAN. The gentlemen will be excused.

Minutes of the previous day's session were read and approved.

Mr. ADAMS. Mr. Chairman, Mr. F. J. Keisel of Weber is in the house and has not been sworn in; I would suggest that he be sworn in, and if in order I would move that he be.

Mr PIERCE. Is Mr. Preston here also? While we are waiting, I desire to move that until otherwise ordered the Convention be governed by Roberts' Rules of Order. We have adopted no rules of order yet. These are the standard rules of order.


The oath was then administered to Mr. Keisel.

Mr. PIERCE. Mr. Chairman, I move you that we do now proceed to elect a permanent president.


Mr. SQUIRES. Mr. Chairman, I place in nomination for the position of president of this Convention the Hon. John Henry Smith of the third precinct of Salt Lake City.

Mr. MURDOCK (Beaver). Mr. Chairman, I second the nomination.

The CHAIRMAN. Nominations are in order, gentlemen.

Mr. EICHNOR. Mr. Chairman, I move that the nominations be closed. [Laughter.]


The CHAIRMAN. How will you have this vote cast, gentlemen?

Mr. PIERCE. Ayes and noes.

Mr. IVINS. Mr. Chairman, there being but one nominee before the house, I move that John Henry Smith be declared president of this assembly by acclamation.

Seconded by a number of delegates.

Mr. VAN HORNE. Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen of the Convention, it does not seem to me that that ought to be the method of electing a presiding officer for such a solemn body as this. I think the roll should be called and each man's vote taken, and that the {40} records show in writing that as the name was called each one voted.

The CHAIRMAN. It has been moved and seconded that the rules be suspended and that John Henry Smith be declared permanent president of this Convention by acclamation. Those in favor of the same will say aye; contrary no.

The ayes seem to have it.

Mr. PIERCE. Ayes and noes.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Clark, call the roll, please.

Mr. HART. Mr. Chairman, was the vote passed?

What was the judgment of the chair on the motion that we vote Mr. Smith in by acclamation? I understood that motion passed.

The CHAIRMAN. It was a very faint acclamation and the ayes and noes are called for.

Mr. PIERCE. I called for the ayes and noes on the motion to sustain the rules.

Mr. IVINS. Mr. Chairman, I would like to suggest that it is very unusual that time be occupied in calling the roll for the determination of a question of this kind. If there is any doubt, in the mind of the gentleman, as to the result of the vote on my motion, it would be a very easy matter in a moment to ask for a division of the house and let the members indicate their vote by rising. I think that this idea of calling the ayes and noes on a question of that kind is very unprecedented.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you amend the motion to that effect?

Mr. IVINS. Yes, sir, I move that a rising vote be called as an amendment to the motion that has been made:


The CHAIRMAN. Now, let me understand_is this on the absolute vote or is it on the_     

Mr. IVINS. It is on my motion that John Henry Smith be declared by acclamation to be the permanent president of this assembly.

The CHAIRMAN. You have heard the motion, gentlemen, those in favor of John Henry Smith for president will stand up.

The secretary pro tem. announced an affirmative vote of ninety.

The CHAIRMAN. There being ninety in the affirmative, I believe it is not necessary to call the noes.

Mr. John Henry Smith is declared permanent president. Mr. Squires and Mr. Roberts, will you conduct Mr. Smith to the chair?

The gentlemen mentioned conducted Mr. Smith to the chair.

Chairman GOODWIN. Gentlemen of the Convention, I have the honor to present your permanent president, Mr. John Henry Smith. [Applause.]

President SMITH. Gentlemen of the Convention: It will be impossible for me to find words to express to you the feelings that are within my breast. For many years it has been a dream of mine that the day would yet come when the people of the Territory of Utah, burying their past differences, would strike hands upon common ground, and as lovers of the same great commonwealth put their hands to the plow of statehood and endeavor to bring the people of that commonwealth into the enjoyment of every right and every liberty that any citizen within the confines of our great Republic does enjoy. I presume that in the efforts of the past there has been a Providence without doubt guiding the destinies of this commonwealth.

I have no doubt that in the future that same Providence, who understands the conditions of its children throughout the world, will guard and guide the interests of this commonwealth and will enable its sons and its daughters to fully magnify the responsibilities that shall be placed upon them when they shall arrive at the full stature of statehood, having performed their part in regard thereto.

I congratulate you gentlemen upon {41} the labor that lies before you. Six times, if my memory serves me right, in the past an effort of this kind has been made. Conventions have assembled, have discharged the sacred duties placed upon them and have made an effort to place themselves in a position that they could exercise the rights that are inherent in those within a state government, but until the present moment that boon has been withheld. There is no bitterness in me so far as that is concerned, in regard to any of these experiences of the past. We meet upon this floor on common ground, common lovers of a common country, and believers in the labors and administrations of that body of great men, who brought about the liberties of the people of the United States, who love the instrument that came through them, and which has been the palladium of the liberties of the American people, and which is more sacred to any American than life itself.

I doubt not but that every gentleman who is assembled within the confines of this building, as a delegate sent to this Constitutional Convention, feels this in the innermost recesses of his heart, that if his country was in danger or if that instrument of their liberties was in danger, life and everything else would be put upon the altar, looking to the preservation of the same and the maintenance of that government which has become dear to us and which has given to us so many blessings pertaining to life.

My friends, I trust that the experience through which we have gone may be a lesson of profit to every one of us. Let us take these matters under consideration and weigh them in the light of judgment and wisdom, concerning the well being of the commonwealth in which we reside, studying no man's interest but the interest of the whole.

Our people having trusted us here with the grave responsibility of presenting to them for their consideration a fundamental law, under which they expect to live, under which their children and their children's children in all likelihood may live, they look to us to discharge this duty in honor before our country, in honor before our God, in honor before them that sent us here, and in honor to ourselves, who are their representatives, and who realize in some measure the vast responsibility that attaches to this exalted station.

My friends, I trust that in our deliberations there shall not exhibit itself that spirit of partisanship that would lead in any degree to improper, unwise, or inconsiderate feeling. We have fought the battle of the past, we have met each other as men upon the arena, we have done our best to accomplish our view in these matters, and considering all the conditions that surround us, I believe it is the sacred duty of every man who has been sent here to see to it, that so far as is possible we shall work in unison to the accomplishment of one great purpose, and that purpose is presenting to our people a Constitution that shall receive their approval and that shall stamp the men who made it as men of worth, as men of honor, as men who love their country, who love

their State, who appreciate the blessings of liberty, and who propose, so far as lies in their power, to exhibit every fairness and justice in their conduct in the performance of that sacred labor.
We have before us a great work to do; we have to consider the conditions of our Territory; we have to consider its resources; we have to consider our ability to perform this duty, in every way, and the ability of the people to fulfill the obligations that we shall present to them and upon which they shall pass.

These matters we have got to consider in the light of judgment and of wisdom. We are not a wealthy people. While we have a goodly land and some day in the future it will have a wonderful population, we are in that condition at the present time that in the consideration {42} of each and every problem that shall come before us in the interest of the government that we seek to establish, we must do it upon the principle of striving to protect the people and preserve them from enormous burdens of taxation.
This duty lies within us, and in the consideration of these matters, everything that can be done that shall tend to enhance the development of our soil_improve every condition, benefit the people, open the doors for the incoming of hundreds that may press upon our soil; the storage of the waters that the lands may be utilized for the purpose of farming, and the opening up of our mines, and the use of the precious metals, should be done. Every condition, every position, everything that would enhance these interests, caring for our flocks and our herds, looking to the advancement of everything that pertains to the well being of our people, I believe lies near to the heart of every man who has entered this assembly, having been sent here by an honest and an upright constituency.

My friends, I trust that we will consider these things, wisely and prudently, that when our work shall be done there shall not be a regret in any breast or in any mind, but with a firm and fixed purpose we stand by the principle of right, the principle of justice, the principle of patriotism, the principle of the love of them that sent us here, and the principles of everything that tends to ennoble and lift up man by giving the broadest liberty and opening up to him in every way the amplest opportunity to utilize the powers with which the great God of Heaven has blessed him.
Thanking you, my friends, for the honor conferred upon me and realizing my weakness, so far as that is concerned, in this position, and desiring to have your full support in seeking to discharge this duty, recognizing the importance of that duty and feeling that if there was aught in the way that should interfere with the accomplishment of this work, the upbuilding of this commonwealth, by act of mine, I should be as ready and as willing as man could be to step away from this position, which you have tendered me, and leave it open to any man, so far as that is concerned, who might desire to occupy the same; and realizing that every man that is congregated here is amply capable and able to discharge this duty, I trust that in the Providence of Our Father in Heaven that you and I will be blessed in our efforts to accomplish this good work and that the commonwealth that we establish, the Constitution that we shall present to the people, will be a credit to you, and that every one of us will look back in the future days of our lives, and rejoice in the fact that the people of the land trusted us as their representatives, to present to them something that should be the palladium of their liberties, of which they with us will be proud in guarding up to the last moment of their lives.

E. W. Tatlock thereupon asked and obtained permission of the Convention to speak.

Mr. TATLOCK. Mr. President, and gentlemen of the Convention:

I am proud to salute a man who was born in the Territory, whose motto was “Our liberties we prize and our rights we will maintain.”
On my way to the building this morning I was accosted by a number of your friends and my friends, the friends of this Convention, who imposed upon me the very pleasant and delicate duty of asking you to accept from them an emblem of your authority during the continuance of this Convention.

The article which I present to you or will present to you is one of domestic manufacture; it was made by one of the good citizens of Salt Lake City. I will mention the parts of this.
The handle, Mr. President, as you will observe, is very slender; a larger one it was believed wouldn't be necessary. {43} The temper of the Convention is such as ought to and doubtless will prevail during its deliberations.

This handle is made of paradise wood, typical no doubt of the harmony that will prevail in this Convention. [Applause.]

The wood was grown in the Temple square in this city. The body of the gavel is made from mountain mahogany, grown on these grand hills surrounding this city. In the center of this body, at one end, is a piece of wood taken from the keel of an English vessel, the Augusta, which was sunk off the Atlantic coast during the Revolutionary war by the guns of our Revolutionary fathers.

That ship lay imbedded for a period of more than eighty years. It then was resurrected by American ingenuity and genius.

It was thought by the maker of this and his friends that the destruction and burial of that ship would serve to remind some folks at least of the doom that might await tyrants and oppressors, leaving off that part of it, even the resurrection period, after eighty years.

On the reverse end of this gavel is a piece of metal which suspended the bell which first proclaimed the freedom of the American people; that was secured by the maker years ago .
It is believed that when this gavel finally falls at the conclusion of the labors of this Convention, that it will be a proclamation to the people of this Territory giving to them, as did the old liberty bell, freedom and liberty, to this grand people, a grand State which is to be as grand as there is in America.

With the best wishes of your legions of friends, please accept this emblem of your authority. [Applause.]

The PRESIDENT. Gentlemen of the Convention, in your behalf I accept from the hands of our friend this gavel and trust that we may be as sturdy as the oak from which part of it is made, as true as the bell that rung out in the day of our need; and having thus been true and thus faithful, that our friends who presented it, with ourselves, in the day of paradise, may find ourselves there.


What is the further pleasure of the Convention?

Mr. CANNON. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the Convention, I desire to introduce the following resolution and move its adoption:

Resolved, that we elect the following permanent officers:

One chief clerk.

One sergeant-at-arms.

One watchman and janitor.

One messenger.

One enrolling and engrossing clerk. One official stenographer and typewriter.

Two pages, and

Three committee clerks.

Motion seconded.

Mr. KERR. Mr. President, I move to amend the resolution by omitting the three committee clerks.

Amendment seconded.

Mr. SQUIRES. Mr. President, I understand that this committee appointed by the Convention yesterday to fix upon the number of committees which we shall need, during the progress of the Convention, is about ready to report, and I should judge that before we ruled out the election of three committee clerks, it would be wise to get the report of that committee and ascertain how many committees we have got to handle. I do not consider that it is possible for this Convention to get along without committee clerks, especially if we have twenty-five or twenty-six committees.

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. President, I favor the adoption of the amendment, as I understand it, to the original motion, that we eliminate the committee clerks. I don't understand the object of the committee clerks; if it is supposed that three committee clerks will do the committee work for some twenty-five or twenty-six committees, I think three are absolutely {44} insufficient and I know of no three committees that should be selected out of the number or that could be selected out of the number and given that favor over and above other committees.

It seems to me, sir, that the officials of this Convention, or the officers of the Convention, should be kept down to the necessities of the Convention, and since the appointment of three committee clerks wouldn't be sufficient to operate for all the committees, I believe that each committee will be able to do its own clerical work from among the members of the committee.

Mr. KERR. Mr, President, I think that, as has been suggested, it would be impossible for three clerks to do the work for twenty-five or twenty-six committees, which are to be appointed, because many of these committees will be in session at the same time and it wouldn't be possible

for these three clerks to attend to the duties that will devolve upon them.

Furthermore, while it is true that legislative assemblies require committee clerks, as in legislative assemblies bills are being introduced from time to time, it is much more necessary that they have these committee clerks, than in a Convention of this kind where the committees would have under consideration a particular article.

I don't believe that this Convention should vote for a large number of committee clerks_a sufficient number to do the work. If it is desired that committee clerks attend to that work, as three would be insufficient, I am in favor of the committees doing the work.
I think that in each committee there will be those who can attend to this work without our being to the expense of paying committee clerks.

Mr. RICKS. Mr. President, I favor the original motion, for this reason: while I believe that each committee should have its own secretary, I believe too that there ought to be clerks, to prepare the reports of those committees after they leave the hands of the committee, that they may be presented to this assembly in proper shape, and I think that every member of this Convention will agree with me that there is a great deal of work that will have to be done on typewriters; at least, it is the purpose of this original resolution, as I understand it, to employ typewriters for that purpose_to prepare the reports of the committees after they have left the hands of the committees and before they are presented to this assembly.

Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President, I think that there is one reason why we should support the amendment in this case. At any rate we do not now need committee clerks. We do not know whether we will need them at all or not. Should we find that such are a necessity in the progress of our work, we can then appoint them and save something in the compensation. The point suggested by the last gentleman on the floor that typewriters might be needed may be true, but that is not involved in this question. The question here is the appointment of clerks, and they may not be typewriters at all, if appointed.

I can conceive that one or two good typewriters later in the session might be of great use to this Convention, but I believe that we ought to adopt this amendment and leave the question of appointing clerks to rest awhile, until we find a necessity for those clerks.
If it should be true that every committee appointed here will have a man who can do clerical work or more than one, and we can economize and save something in the expense of this Convention, certainly that is a consummation devoutly to be wished by every member here. We don't know just how long our work will require us_how long a time it will take. We know this {45} much, that we are limited in the amount of money we have to expend.
I favor the amendment for the reasons suggested by others as well as those.

Mr. SQUIRES. Mr. President, as I understand it, there is nothing in this motion which goes to the election of these clerks to-day, and I do not believe that it is contemplated by the maker of the motion that those clerks should be selected to-day. We simply provide by this motion for the permanent officers of the Convention to that point, and I see no possible objection to resolving now that we will at some time employ three committee clerks, and I am willing to have for my

part embodied in the resolution that these three clerks shall be typewriters.

Mr. CANNON. Mr. President, and gentlemen of the Convention, as the mover of this resolution, I desire to speak for a moment in its behalf. Several of the gentlemen who have spoken in opposition to the resolution and in favor of the amendment have presented two points. The first because we cannot have twenty-five or the requisite number of clerks, don't let us have any.
Second, that it would be a matter of economy to not have clerks. Now. Mr. President and gentlemen, in this matter it is designed to have enough clerks that those clerks, placed at the disposal of the different committees at different times will probably do all the work.
They certainly should be typewriters, and if possible stenographers. There is no reason why we should be penny wise and pound foolish in this matter. The members are paid much higher than the amount that would be paid to these clerks and the clerks would serve various committees.
When one committee is through with a clerk he can go to the next and so on, and by a friendly arrangement among the committees and the respective chairmen the clerks can be constantly employed.

Another thing, our friends yesterday were very anxious to get down to business. What is the matter with getting down to business to-day? If we have these committee clerks, if the various committees are appointed, if work is assigned to them we can commence at once and the expense of the Convention being something like five hundred dollars per day, don't let us wait to the closing hours before we commence to employ the help that we absolutely need.

The question on the amendment being put and a division called for, was lost by a vote, of 44 ayes to 51 noes.

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. President, I move an amendment to the resolution to this effect, that the question of an official stenographer be referred to a committee of five for the purpose of consideration.

Mr. WELLS. I second the motion.

Mr. CANNON. Mr. President, and gentlemen of the Convention, I think that that would not be necessary. The same object would be attained if the gentleman would wait until this is adopted, and in naming an official stenographer, if he so desire it could be referred to a committee of five. We certainly want an official stenographer.

Mr. ROBERTS. It seems to me that if the gentleman offering the resolution contemplates the reference of the matter of the official stenographer to a committee, if he contemplates that in his resolution, it seems to me, sir, that the proper method of proceeding would be to refer the whole question as to the desirability of having an official stenographer. I am of the opinion that that is a question in the minds of gentlemen in this Convention, and therefore, my amendment contemplated the consideration of the desirability of a stenographer at all, and not merely the suggestion offered by the gentleman who last spoke on the question as to who {46} the stenographer should be. My amendment involves the consideration of the desirability of the stenographer.

Mr. VARIAN. I would like to suggest to Mr. Cannon that the resolution does not provide for the compensation of the minute clerk and the three committee clerks and possibly some other officer whose compensation is not fixed by statute. What is your pleasure about that?

Mr. CANNON. Mr. President and gentlemen of the Convention, I would state that I thought that later on a committee would probably be appointed to consider this subject of compensation.
Most of the officers named, as Mr. Varian suggests, are provided for by statute. The others, I think that a committee appointed by the house would be better able to investigate the qualifications of those who were employed and the compensation they should receive than it would be to name it and then not know who would fill the office.

Mr. WELLS. Mr. President, I seconded the motion of Mr. Roberts to refer this question or to eliminate from this resolution of Mr. Cannon's, the question of employment of an official stenographer and typewriter. I think that the committee ought also to be clothed with power to consider the advisability of employing an official stenographer and also of selecting the stenographer. I am in favor of that.

Mr. BUTTON. Mr. President, I would like to know, is this an amendment to refer to the committee the question whether it is best to hire a stenographer or not?

The PRESIDENT. I presume that is it.

Mr. BUTTON. I want to know if that is the meaning of this amendment.

Mr. ROBERTS. That is it, sir.

The roll being called on the question of the amendment the vote was as follows:

Evans, (Utah)

Kimball, Salt Lake
Low, William
Low, Peter
Low, J. P.
Murdock, Wasatch
Robinson, Kane
Robison, Wayne


Larsen, L.
Larsen, C. P.
Murdock, Beaver
Murdock, Summit
Peterson, Grand
Peterson, Sanpete
Van Horne

The amendment was declared lost.

Mr. SQUIRES. Mr. President, I move {47} to amend the resolution by providing that the three committee clerks shall be typewriters.


Mr. CANNON. Mr. President, with the consent of my second I will accept that amendment.

Mr. THATCHER. Will you gentlemen kindly insert the words, “lady typewriters?”

Mr. SQUIRES. I should be very glad Mr. President, when we come to select those clerks if there are lady candidates to give my vote for them.

The resolution was then adopted.

Mr. PIERCE. Mr. President, I move you that we proceed to elect our officers as this resolution contemplates.


Mr. EICHNOR. Mr. President, for chief clerk of this Convention, I take great pleasure in nominating Mr. Parley P. Christensen, of Tooele County.

Mr. ANDERSON. I second that nomination.

Mr. THATCHER. Mr. President, there being no further nominations, I move that we suspend the rules and elect him by acclamation.

Carried unanimously.

The PRESIDENT. I would appoint Mr. Eichnor and Mr. Thurman to bring Mr. Parley P. Christensen forward to his seat.

Mr. PIERCE. Mr. President, wouldn't it save time to elect all that we are to elect and have them sworn in at the same time?

The PRESIDENT. Yes; we will let the temporary secretary then retain his seat.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I move that the candidates of gentlemen for the respective offices in the resolution be named at once, and one vote taken on the whole. We will save half or three- quarters of an hour by doing so. I make that motion in perfect good faith. I understand there are no opposing candidates at all.


Mr. DRIVER. I present the name, Mr. President, of Mr. C. S. Rapp, of Weber County, as minute clerk.

Mr. SQUIRES. Mr. President, in order to put them in a way that we can get them all at once, I

respectfully request that Mr. Cannon rise and read the names of those candidates that were elected. [Laughter.] If we are going to save time, Mr. President, that is the best way to save time.

Mr. ELDREDGE. I move, Mr. President, that we eliminate from that the committee clerks for the present.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, that motion has already been passed upon.

The PRESIDENT. That motion has been passed upon.

Mr. ELDREDGE. I will then move Mr. President, to reconsider the motion; I voted in the affirmative.


Mr. VARIAN. If the gentleman voted in the affirmative, he is not entitled to reconsider, because that motion was lost on a negative vote.

Mr. SQUIRES. Mr. President, as a matter of fact there are no candidates before this Convention this morning for those three places, consequently the motion would not be necessary. [Laughter.]

The PRESIDENT. You are out of order, Mr. Eldredge.

Mr. ELDREDGE. Mr. President, I voted in favor of the adoption of that motion; that they all be presented at once; now, then, in order to get it before this house that they may eliminate the committee clerks I will move to reconsider the motion, which was on the adoption.


Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President, there are some of us here who for some reason did not have notice of a caucus yesterday afternoon. If some gentleman who was there will state what they did there we can probably adopt it as a whole. [Laughter.]

The PRESIDENT. As I understand {48} the situation at the present time, it is, Mr. Eldredge moved to reconsider the question of passing upon this at once, having voted in favor of it.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Mr. President, may I ask a question?

Mr. THATCHER. I move as an amendment to that we have a recess of forty-five minutes in order that we may prepare the names of those three.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Mr. President, I would like to ask Mr. Eldredge what his intention is, how he intends to provide for a stenographer and clerk. Does he intend following this up with another motion to name them separately? If he does I have no objection to it.

Mr. ELDREDGE. My object then was to follow this up with a motion so far as it pertains to all except the committee clerks and then handle that question subsequently.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, as the mover of the original motion, I ask then to solve this question, the unanimous consent of the Convention to leaving out the committee clerks at this time. That will leave the resolution simply to elect all the others at once, leaving the committee clerks out.

Mr. BUTTON. Mr. President, I would like to have Mr. Varian, as mover of that motion, leave out the stenographer too.

Mr. VARIAN. No; that has been decided. I don't care to do that. I am in favor of a stenographer. I think it is useless to dwell on that subject.

Mr. BOWDLE. Mr. President, I move you to amend the resolution offered by the gentleman from Salt Lake by striking out the word “stenographer.”

Mr. ROBERTS. I second the amendment.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I arise to a point of order. A motion was made by me and carried by the house to that effect that all of the officers named in the resolution adopted upon the motion of Mr. Cannon, should be elected at once.

Now in order to meet the objection of Mr. Eldredge, I suggest that by unanimous consent that motion stand with the exception that the three committee clerks should be eliminated. There is no motion that I made. It is simply by unanimous consent of this house that they will treat that resolution as adopted in that way.

Now, if the gentleman wants to amend that resolution of Mr. Cannon's, he must move a reconsideration of the vote by which it was adopted. He can not interject that motion upon a request of this kind, which depends upon the unanimous consent of the house as to how they will treat the resolution, which they have already adopted. It seems to me that if I am correct, my position is clear.

Mr. VAN HORNE. Mr. President, I move you to reconsider the resolution which was adopted, saying that we should elect all these officers at once.


Mr. CANNON. Mr. President, I arise for information. Is the resolution which you desire to reconsider the one offered by Mr. Varian?

Mr. VAN HORNE. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. President, for information, I would like to know if the question before the

house is upon the unanimous consent for the consideration of Mr. Varian's resolution to eliminate the three committee clerks?

Mr. VAN HORNE. Mr. President, I understood that was adopted. Mr. President, I will say for the benefit of the gentleman, the object of reconsidering this is that while we voted to have a stenographer_the employment of a stenographer is the greatest single expense that I know of connected with this Convention; it takes the place of two or three or perhaps four of the best offices in the gift of this Convention, in the line of expense_perhaps some arrangement can be made, if time is given, by which the salary of the stenographer can be fixed so as to {49} save this Convention an expense that is greater than they might think they were able to bear; it is for that purpose and the giving time to consider the question to who the stenographer shall be that I ask that that resolution be reconsidered.

MR. ROBERTS. Is then the question, Mr. President, upon the unanimous consent to eliminate the three committee clerks?

The PRESIDENT. Yes, sir; as I understand it.

Mr. RICKS. Mr. President, as I understand the motion of Mr. Van Horne, it is simply to reconsider whether we shall vote upon all these officers at once or vote upon them separately; is that the question?

Mr. VAN HORNE. It is.

Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President, upon the motion of Mr. Van Horne I wish to make this remark: The motion to elect these men or parties in a brood instead of singly was made, as I take it, in the interest of facilitating business. We have spent long enough time here to have selected them one at a time, if we had gone on in the regular order. I favor now that we get back to the point where we can do business in the right way_adopt this resolution and elect these men one at a time.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, in view of the fact that a motion was made to reconsider I will withdraw mine.

The motion of Mr. Van Horne was then carried unanimously.

Mr. RICKS. Mr. President, I move that we proceed to elect the remaining officers one at a time.

SEVERAL DELEGATES. It is not necessary.

Mr. DRIVER. I arise to put in nomination Charles S. Rapp, of Weber County, for minute clerk.

Nomination seconded by a number of delegates.

Mr. RALIEGH. Mr. President, I beg leave to introduce or recommend the name of Mr. Milando Pratt, as engrossing and enrolling clerk.

Mr. VAN HORNE. Mr. President, I arise to the point of order that that is not the order of business.

The point of order was sustained.

Mr. DRIVER. Mr. President, I move that the rules be suspended and that we elect Mr. Charles S. Rapp by acclamation.


Mr. Charles S. Rapp was then elected minute clerk by acclamation.

Mr. LUND. Mr. President, and gentlemen of the Convention, I nominate Mr. R. Clawson, of Sanpete, for the position of sergeant-at-arms.

Mr. BUTTON. I move that the rules be suspended and Mr. Clawson elected by acclamation.


Mr. R. Clawson was then elected sergeant-at-arms, by acclamation.

Mr. LAMBERT. Mr. President, I take pleasure in nominating Mr. Bruce Johnson for the position of watchman and janitor.

Mr. PIERCE. I move to suspend the rules and elect by acclamation, Mr. President.

Mr. JAMES. Mr. President, I move that the rules be suspended in all the nominations, not suspended in each case.

Mr. VAN HORNE. Mr. President, I second the motion to suspend the rules in this case.

Mr. IVINS. Mr. President, if the president will permit me to suggest, I regard it as unnecessary to put this question, whether the rules will be suspended unless there is some objection. If there is a motion to suspend the rules, the chair might say, unless there is an objection, the rules are suspended and go right on and elect these officers.

Under suspension of the rules Mr. Bruce Johnson was elected watchman and janitor by acclamation.

Mr. KEARNS. Mr. President, I want {50} to suggest the name of Mr. Thomas Watson, of Wasatch, for messenger.

Under suspension of the rules, Mr. Thomas Watson was elected messenger by acclamation.

Mr. RALEIGH. Mr. President, I desire to renew my nomination of Mr. Milando Pratt for

engrossing and enrolling clerk ; I have known him all my life; he has had a great amount of experience, has held such a position in legislatures and other places in this Territory, and I am satisfied that this body of men will find him capable.

Mr. ELDREDGE. Mr. President, I arise to place in nomination for that position the name of Joseph A. Smith, of Cache County.

Mr. ANDERSON. Mr. President, I second that nomination.

Mr. KIESEL. Mr. President, I desire to know for information which of these is on the slate.

Mr. EICHNOR. Smith.

The PRESIDENT. I am not prepared myself to say.

Mr. NEBEKER. Mr. President, I arise in support of the nomination of Mr. Pratt. As the Convention has proceeded as a sort of a ratification meeting, at this point I shall try and break the monotony by voting for Mr. Pratt.

Mr. FARR. Mr. President, I haven't the pleasure of knowing about this slate business. I have nothing to say about that, but Mr. Pratt I am acquainted with, he has been a good faithful servant in days of the past and I know too he is needy of a job and he is worthy and competent and I second the motion.

Mr. ANDERSON. Mr. President, I can say in behalf of Joseph A. Smith, that he is well qualified and a good, competent man and will fill the place with honor and ability if elected.

Mr. CHRISTIANSON. I move you, Mr. President, the nominations close. Seconded.

Mr. KIESEL. I place in nomination, Mr. President, Mr. Newton Farr from Ogden, Weber County. He has all the qualifications that have been named for the other gentlemen, besides that he is a good Democrat.

Mr. LOW (Cache). I have this to say, Mr. President, in favor of the nominee from Cache County; he is the slated member for this position, he is the gentleman from Cache and should be supported by this Convention.

Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President, I regret to say that we have come to the dividing roads, and I will have to part company with the caucus on this question. I have stood by the caucus faithfully, manfully I trust, although they omitted by an oversight yesterday to notify me that the caucus was going to meet.

The PRESIDENT. They did the same with me.

Mr. THURMAN. But I shall support the nomination presented by the gentleman from Ogden,

Mr. Kiesel, of Mr. Farr.

Mr. CHRISTIANSON. Mr. President, I move that the nominations close.

Mr. CORAY. Mr. President, I understand we suspended the rules here to apply to each nomination.

The PRESIDENT. Until objection was made, Mr. Coray.

Mr. MALONEY. Mr. President, the proper thing to do is to call the roll, when there are three candidates.

The PRESIDENT. The question is, shall the nominations close?


The PRESIDENT. The nominees before this Convention are Milando Pratt, Joseph A. Smith and Newton Farr.

Mr. CRANE. Mr. President, I move that as the roll is called each man names the candidate he desires for this position.

Mr. PIERCE. That is correct.

The following was the vote on the roll call:

Mr. ADAMS. Smith.
Mr. ALLEN. Smith.
Mr. ANDERSON. Smith.
Mr. BARNES. Pratt.
Mr. BOWDLE. Smith.
Mr. BUTTON. Smith.
Mr. BUYS. Pratt.
Mr. CALL. Pratt.
Mr. CANNON. Smith.
Mr. CLARK. Smith.
Mr. CORAY. Smith.
Mr. CORFMAN. Pratt.
Mr. CRANE. Smith.
Mr. CREER. Pratt.
Mr. CUSHING. Smith.

Mr. DRIVER. Smith.
Mr. EICHNOR. Smith.
Mr. ELDREDGE. Smith.
Mr. EMERY. Smith.
Mr. ENGBERG. Pratt.
Mr. EVANS (Utah). Pratt.
Mr. EVANS (Weber). Farr.
Mr. FARR. Pratt.
Mr. FRANCIS. Pratt.
Mr. GIBBS. Smith.

Mr. GOODWIN. Mr. President, may I be permitted to explain my vote?

The PRESIDENT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GOODWIN. It was represented to a few of us that Cache County had set its heart on Mr. Smith; that if he were not nominated for this position it would go Democratic forever. As missionary work I vote for Mr. Smith. [Laughter.]

Mr. GREEN. Smith.
Mr. HAMMOND. Farr.
Mr. HART. Pratt.
Mr. HAYNES. Smith.
Mr. HALLIDAY. Pratt.
Mr. HEYBORNE. Smith.
Mr. HILL. Smith.
Mr, HOWARD. Pratt.
Mr. HUGHES. Farr.
Mr. HYDE. Smith.
Mr. IVINS. Pratt.
Mr. JAMES. Smith.
Mr. JOHNSON. Pratt.
Mr. JOLLEY. Smith.

Mr. KEISEL. Mr. President, I would like to explain my vote; I vote for Mr. Farr for the same reason that Mr. Goodwin voted for the other gentleman_that Cache County may remain Democratic.

Mr. KEITH. Smith.
Mr. KEARNS. Smith.
Mr. KERR. Pratt.

Mr. KIMBALL (Salt Lake). Mr. President, while these other gentlemen are voting on the candidates, I would like the privilege to say and I also ask pardon of the gentlemen for breaking the slate, but at the same time, Mr. Pratt_

Mr. ELDREDGE. Mr. President, let me ask the gentleman, if he knows whether it is broken or not.

Mr. KIMBALL (Salt Lake). I will take chances on that. Mr. Pratt is a good Democrat but while we do not ask any favors, at the same time, I will ask the honorable gentlemen who vote after me to sustain this gentleman.

The SECRETARY. How do you vote?

Mr. KIMBALL (Salt Lake). Pratt.
Mr. LARSEN, L. Smith.
Mr. LARSEN, C. P. Smith.
Mr. LEMMON. Pratt.
Mr. LEWIS. Farr,
Mr. LOW, WILLIAM. Pratt.
Mr. LOW, PETER. Smith.
Mr. LOW, J. P. Pratt.
Mr. LUND. Smith.
Mr. MAESER. Smith.
Mr. MALONEY, Farr.
Mr. MAUGHAN. Farr.
Mr. McFARLAND. Smith.
Mr. MILLER. Smith.
Mr. MORRIS. Smith.
Mr. MORITZ. Smith.
Mr. MURDOCK (Wasatch). Pratt.
Mr. MURDOCK (Summit). Smith.

Mr. NEBEKER. Mr. President, the reason that I vote for Mr. Pratt is not because he is a Democrat, but because I know Mr. Pratt; and am not acquainted with Mr. Smith, and I know {52} if Mr. Pratt were elected to this position he would be a most efficient officer. Mr. PAGE. Smith.

Mr. PETERS. Pratt.
Mr. PETERSON (Grand). Smith.
Mr. PETERSON (Sanpete). Smith.
Mr. PIERCE. Smith.

Mr. RALEIGH. Mr. President, I vote for Mr. Pratt; I didn't know his politics until they were announced by Mr. Kimball, but I vote for him because he is a man.

Mr. ROBERTS. Farr.
Mr. ROBINSON (Kane). Smith.

Mr. ROBISON (Wayne). Pratt.
Mr. RYAN. Smith.
Mr. SHARP. Pratt.
Mr. SNOW. Pratt.
Mr. SPENCER. Farr.
Mr. SQUIRES. Smith.
Mr. STOVER. Smith,
Mr. SYMONS. Smith.

Mr. THATCHER. Mr. President, I think I ought to give some reasons why I give my vote for the candidate of my choice.

In the first place, I am in perfect harmony with the observation of the president in regard to non- partisanship, and think in a body of this kind we ought to be able to rise above it. I think we have set an excellent example in that direction this morning, and as the honorable gentleman on the left stated he did a little missionary work, I want to give him a cue and it is this, that the Democrats of the north have carried their point, because they have been broad and generous to their political opponents, and as another evidence of that I must cast my vote for Mr. Smith.

Mr. THOMPSON. Smith.
Mr. THORESON. Pratt.
Mr. THORNE. Pratt.
Mr. VAN HORNE. Smith.
Mr. VARIAN. Smith.
Mr. WARRUM. Farr.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Smith.

Mr. MALONEY. Mr. President, I wish to change my vote from Mr. Farr to Mr. Pratt; and I will further say that I am authorized to withdraw the name of Mr. Newton Farr in favor of Mr. Pratt.

Mr KIESEL. Mr. President, I would like to change my vote to Mr. Pratt.

The PRESIDENT. If there are no objections the name will be withdrawn.

Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President, if I may be_     

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. President, I want to change my vote to Mr. Pratt.

Mr. THURMAN. Same for me, Mr. President.

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. President, I also wish to change my vote from Mr. Farr to Mr. Pratt.

Mr. VARIAN. As Mr. Farr has withdrawn his name, I move that all votes cast for him be given

to Mr. Pratt.

Mr. EVANS (Weber.) I second the motion, that all the votes cast for Mr. Farr be given to Mr. Pratt.

Mr. CHRISTIANSON. Mr. President, I arise to ask a privilege of this body, and that is to be absent for sometime, having received word that one of my brothers died this morning.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the gentleman will be granted his leave of absence.

Mr. BOYER. Mr. President, in my sympathy with the man who is bereft of a dear friend, in behalf of myself and others, I would like to know his name and county.

Mr. CHRISTIANSON. My name is Parley Christianson, of Mayfield, Sanpete County.

The SECRETARY. The vote is as follows before any changes were made.

Mr. Pratt, 28.
Mr. Smith, 55.
Mr. Farr, 10.

If the ten votes go to Mr. Pratt it makes him 38 and Mr. Smith 55.

The PRESIDENT. Mr. Smith is elected.

Mr. CRANE. Mr. President, I move that the rules be suspended and that {53} this Convention extend to Mr. Christianson of Mayfield, Sanpete County, their sincere condolence in his sad bereavement.


Mr. KERR. I move we adjourn until 3 o'clock.

Mr. EICHNOR. No, no, let us finish.

Mr. JOLLEY. I suppose it is understood that Mr. Christianson is excused, is it not?

The PRESIDENT. Yes, sir.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Has the chairman declared the vote?

The CHAIRMAN. There is a motion for adjournment, has there been a second to it?

Mr. KERR. If the vote has not been announced by the chair, I will withdraw the motion.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). A motion to adjourn is not in order pending an election. Mr. President, I now move that the election of Mr. Smith be made unanimous.



The PRESIDENT. The next order of business is the election of one official stenographer and typewriter.

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. President, it occurs to me that the nomination of official stenographer for this Convention is a matter of such importance and involves, as admitted by the gentleman on my right here, some time ago, such a question of expense, that I shall move you that the question of nominations for an official stenographer be referred to a committee of five appointed by the chair.


Mr. ROBERTS. I would have it understood, Mr. President, that that includes the consideration of compensation for the stenographer.

Mr. BOWDLE. Does that contemplate the employment of the stenographer by this committee of five?

Mr. ROBERTS. No, sir.

The PRESIDENT. Just a report upon it_the compensation and all things attendant upon it.

Mr. BOWDLE. And make a report to this body?

The PRESIDENT. Yes, sir.

Mr. SQUIRES. I understand that this Convention has once voted against the motion made by Mr. Roberts when it came in the form of an amendment to the other motion and I hope that the same action will prevail at this time.

Mr. ROBERTS. I wish to inform the gentleman that the motion that was lost before was upon the consideration of having a stenographer at all. The motion now presented to the house is as to nominations and compensation for that position. This was not included in the previous question that was decided by this house.

Mr. SQUIRES. As I understand the order of business under which we are going, we are not considering compensation at this point, we are considering election and I am not prepared to vote for this resolution at this time.

Mr. HAYNES. I move, Mr. President, to pass the question of nomination of a stenographer and typewriter for the present, as a substitute for the motion of Mr. Roberts.

The PRESIDENT. There is no second to that.

Mr. VARIAN. I hope this motion of Mr. Roberts will not prevail; the question of the compensation as was suggested in answer to my inquiry in relation to these offices can be settled hereafter.

This Convention has now determined that it will have a stenographer. Let us name him and the Convention can fix the compensation afterwards. If there is any thought underlying in the Convention that we do not need a stenographer, it seems to me that the sooner we disabuse our minds of that impression the better it will be. We must have a stenographer. It is just as important to preserve the deliberations of this Convention almost as it is to have {54} a presiding officer. In this age of the world and with our manner and habits of doing business, and more particularly legislative business, it is impossible to get along without a stenographer. There will always be differences of opinion and of recollection as to how questions stand, as to what matters were disposed of, perhaps after days have elapsed, or at least a day, or even hours have elapsed. As a matter of convenience, as a matter of absolute necessity, we must have a stenographer.

Now, what is the use of waiting? I hope that this motion will not prevail, and that we will name the stenographer and leave the question of compensation to be determined hereafter.

Mr. THURMAN. A while ago when the question was before the Convention, whether or not this matter would be referred to a committee, I favored not referring to a committee the question as to whether we would have a stenographer or not. I favor a stenographer and was not willing to be bound by a committee's action upon that proposition. The motion failed to refer the question of having a stenographer at all, and it failed largely_I am satisfied that the failure was due to the suggestion made by Mr. Cannon from Salt Lake, that he favored the referring of the question as to who the stenographer should be to a committee. I know that I voted in the honest belief that the question of who the stenographer should be would be submitted to a committee of this house appointed by the chair, and I had the assurance of gentlemen on my right who are familiar with the proceedings of the caucus which took place in my absence that there was no stenographer slated by the caucus at all. That that was left open. Now I think it is a very proper subject to go to a committee and I state one or two reasons why. Everything else being equal the person who will do the work for the least money, who is equally efficient, ought to have the work to do. We do not know_gentlemen who happened to be at the caucus may know who will do this work as well as anybody else for the least money, but I am not ready to vote upon that question. As has been suggested here, this is an officer that probably will cost four or five times as much as the other officers that we have been choosing here by our vote. It is a matter, therefore, of greatest importance. Let us refer it to a committee appointed by the chair who will consider the qualifications of the stenographers, who will put their qualifications to the test, and consider something in relation to the compensation to be paid them. Let that committee report to this house what they find the facts to be and then when they have reported to the house, the house can act with intelligence. Therefore, I favor the motion. I think we are entitled to it. I think that many

of us who voted in good faith in the belief that a stenographer would not be named by this meeting to-day ought now to have the opportunity to have that matter referred.

Mr. JAMES. Mr. President, I agree with what Mr. Varian has said, every word. We have proceeded now for the third day with our business with volunteer work, and, as Mr. Varian has said to you, you might as well try to proceed with this Convention without a chairman as without a stenographer.

Mr. THURMAN. We all agree to that.

Mr. JAMES. Mr. President, and to attempt to go ahead without a competent stenographer would be a very bad feature of it, and we must or should in justice to our own interests select a stenographer without delay, and therefore I am in favor of settling this question now. Bring it before this Convention and let it be settled, so that we will go on with our work.
Mr. CANNON. Mr. President and gentlemen of the Convention, I think {55 - ADOPTING U. S. CONSTITUTION} that in all fairness, it would be well to have a committee consider this matter. I believe that they can do so and report to us and that we will be better satisfied with their report than if we were to receive nominations without considering the qualifications of those who are applicants. And if a committee of competent men is appointed, I think that in the end we will all be better satisfied with it. For this reason I favor the motion of Mr. Roberts.

Mr. IVINS. Mr. President, I move the previous question.

The previous question was ordered.

The motion of Mr. Roberts was then carried.

Mr. MALONEY. Mr. President, the committee on site and furniture is ready to report.

Mr. VARIAN. We are in the midst of another order of business, Mr. President.

The PRESIDENT. I will appoint Messrs, Wells, Roberts, Eldredge, James, and Evans, of Weber, as the committee on stenographer.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. President, I will ask to be excused from that on account of business I have out of the Convention. Otherwise I should be pleased to act.

Mr. GOODWIN. Mr. President, Mr. Evans is not in the house, he was excused this morning.

The PRESIDENT. Thank you; I will appoint in his place Mr. Thurman.

Mr. SYMONS. Mr. President, I arise to place in nomination for page, Mr. John H. Thorne.

Mr. SQUIRES. Mr. President, I nominate L. C. Camp, of Salt Lake, as page, and I move that the rules be suspended and that these two candidates be elected by acclamation.

Mr. KIESEL. Mr. President, I nominate Charles R. Pratt, of Salt Lake City.

Mr. SQUIRES. Mr. President, I withdraw my motion.

Mr. BOWDLE. Mr. President, I move that the nominations do now close. Carried.

Mr. CANNON. Mr. President, I would ask to be excused by consent of the house for a couple of hours. I have an appointment.


Mr. RICKS. Mr. President, I move that we proceed to vote upon these candidates by a rising vote, the two receiving the largest number of votes to be declared elected.

Mr. VAN HORNE. Mr. President, I move that we proceed to vote one at a time on these pages.

Mr. RICKS. I will withdraw my motion.

Mr. JOLLEY. Mr. President, I second the motion of Mr. Van Horne.


On a rising vote, Messrs. Thorne and Camp were declared as pages by a vote of 70 and 61 respectively.

Mr. SQUIRES. Mr. President, I move that the officers-elect be brought to the bar of the house and sworn.

Mr. EICHNOR. And take their seats.


Minute clerk, Rapp, sergeant-at-arms, Clawson, watchman, Johnson, messenger, Watson, and pages, Thorne and Camp, were thereupon sworn in by the president.

Mr. CRANE. Mr. President, the permanent organization being perfected, I desire to offer the following resolution:

Resolved by the Constitutional Convention of the Territory of Utah, now assembled that we do hereby adopt the Constitution of the United States.

Mr. EICHNOR. Mr. President, I move as a substitute the following:

Whereas, the organization of the Constitutional Convention, duly assembled for the purpose of framing a Constitution for the proposed State of Utah is now perfected; therefore, be it

Resolved, that we, the delegates of the Convention, for and on behalf of the people of said proposed State of Utah, do hereby declare that we hereby adopt the Constitution of the United States.

Mr. CRANE. I accept the amendment, Mr. President.

Mr. MALONEY. Mr. President, I move to amend by saying: “And all the amendments of the United States.”

Mr. EICHNOR. It is not necessary.

The PRESIDENT. That covers the ground.

The resolution of Mr. Eichnor was unanimously adopted by a rising vote. [Applause.]

Mr. RALEIGH. Mr. President, I move we adjourn until half past three.

Mr. GOODWIN. Mr. President, if the gentleman will withhold for a moment, I wish to explain that there was a committee sent out yesterday to investigate and suggest upon site and furniture for this house. If they might report then we might adjourn until to-morrow morning.

Mr. PIERCE. Mr. President, that committee is ready to report.

Mr. GOODWIN. There is one little matter; we haven't fixed about the chaplain.

Mr. VAN HORNE. Mr. President, I move you that the president of this Convention be authorized by the Convention to invite in daily some reverend gentleman to act as our chaplain.

Mr. KEARNS. Mr. President, I second the motion of Mr. Van Horne.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, perhaps the gentleman wiil take a suggestion and add, “of the different denominations.”

Mr. VAN HORNE. That was the purpose of the resolution, but I think we can safely leave that to our presiding officer.


The committee on standing committees then presented the following report, which was read by the secretary:

March 6, 1895.


Your special committee on standing committees recommend that this Convention have the following standing committees:

1. Rules and methods of procedure, consisting of five, with president of the Convention as chairman.

2. Federal relation and compact, seven members.

3. Preamble and declaration of rights, eleven members.

4. Legislative, fifteen members.

5. Judiciary, fifteen members.

6. Executive, fifteen members.

7. Election and rights of suffrage, fifteen members.

8. Apportionment and boundaries, one from each county.

9. Education and school lands, eleven members.

10. Public buildings and state institutions, not educational, eleven members.

11. Water rights, irrigation and agriculture, fifteen members.

12. Municipal corporations, nine members.

13. Corporations other than municipal, fifteen members.

14. Public lands, seven members.

15. Revenue, taxation, and public debts, fifteen members.

16. Salaries of public officers, nine members.

17. Mines and mining, fifteen members.

18. Labor and arbitration, seven members.

19. Printing, three members.

20. Militia, five members.

21. Manufacture and commerce, seven members.

22. Ordinances, seven members.

23. Schedule, future amendments, and miscellaneous, nine members.

24. Accounts and expenses, three members.

25. Engrossing and enrollment, five members.

26. Compilation and arrangements, five members.

Respectfully submitted,




March 6, 1895.

The undersigned members recommend that the committee on apportionment and boundaries consist of fifteen members instead of one from each county.

PIERCE, Salt Lake.







Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I move the adoption of the report of the committee {57} as modified by minority report.

Mr. VAN HORNE. Mr. President, I second the motion.

Mr. EICHNOR. Mr. President, I ask that they explain when they state a committee on compilation and arrangements, whether they mean a committee on revision.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I suggest there is a question before the house; I don't care to have this interjected in this manner.

By request, the secretary re-read the minority report.

Mr. VARIAN. Now, Mr. President, the majority report offers a committee of twenty-six on apportionment and boundaries. A committee of twenty-six would be unnecessarily large and unwieldy. Fifteen is certainly large enough. if we expect to have executive work done and for that reason, it seems to me that the suggestion of the minority of the committee is a very proper one. And there is another reason, the counties differ in population, and material wealth.

The proposition of the majority would allow my county, representing fifty or sixty odd thousand people with over a third if not half of the material wealth of the Territory, the same voice in the districting as the small counties with a few hundred people.

It is not fair on the face of it. This thing ought to be taken into consideration in a matter of so much importance as that. It goes down to the very right of representation and next to that of self government.

It seems to me that the house can see that in a moment. It is not fair to take a great county like Salt Lake, (let others speak for their own counties, I speak for mine), and put her upon an equality with San Juan or Sevier or any of those counties with a comparatively, and as to her, insignificant population, and I do not think the gentlemen ought to ask it.

Mr. JAMES. Mr. President; I am in favor of the minority report. As Mr Varian has well said, I think it should be considered.

Mr. KEARNS. Mr. President, I do not agree with the gentleman from Salt Lake who has spoken on the question. As Mr. Varian has said he is speaking for Salt Lake; I am speaking for the Territory at large. I think my county should have a voice in this matter and I think it is fair to give every county in this Territory a voice on it. I think this question should be discussed fully in the committee room and not here and that Salt Lake will get as fair a deal as anybody. I am in favor of each county being represented on that committee.

Mr. SNOW. Mr. President, I can not understand the position of the members in the committee who voted for the majority report, turning around and signing the minority report.

I was not the mover of the question or the motion that finally prevailed in the committee, but I seconded it, and I have waited for the mover of that motion to support his motion, but to my surprise I find that he has signed the minority report.

Mr. VARIAN. He was the chairman of the committee, he had to sign the report.

Mr. SNOW. Mr. President, usually the chairman of the committee signs the majority report.

Mr. PIERCE. Mr. President, the chairman signed the minority report for himself.

Mr. SNOW. Mr. President, I wish to say, that I do not understand that committees are appointed for taking advantage in favor of their constituents, and I do not think that they would necessarily do so, in this committee on apportionment and boundaries.

I think it is only fair that if this Constitutional Convention contemplates an apportionment and representation in senatorial and representative districts, it is nothing more than right that each {58} county should be represented in that committee. This Convention may delegate to the Legislature this apportionment or they may not.

They may incorporate in the Constitution the apportionment or representation itself; if so, I think it eminently proper that every county be represented on that committee.

I do not think that twenty-six is much more unwieldy than fifteen, and I do not think the cow counties will endeavor to take any advantage of Salt Lake or any other of these larger counties, because they might outvote them and because they have a large constituency to represent, but I think when you come to apportion and create representative and senatorial districts that you ought at least to have some member from the county that can tell you where the trails are,
You are not supposed in Salt Lake to know the needs or the necessities or the lines in Washington County or Sevier County, and all that we would like to be upon that committee for is by way of suggestion, not to be unfair, and I respectfully represent to you that you have it in your power in this Convention, if we are, unfair there to you, to outvote us. I think it nothing more than fair to allow this committee to be composed of at least one member from each county. [Applause.]

Mr. CREER. Mr. President, I am in favor of the majority report. But I am opposed, Mr. President, to starting out at the threshold of this Convention upon a basis of sectionalism. I take it that every member here has just as much the welfare of the people of this Territory_of this commonwealth at heart, as a whole, as Mr. Varian would indicate that they would not have.

Mr. VARIAN. I would like to ask the gentleman a question, Mr. President.

Mr. CREER. If the point made by the gentleman from Salt Lake be true, it would necessarily have to follow in every committee, because the amount of population, the amount of wealth, would be the same, and the same reason would follow that the greater representation from Salt Lake would have to be on each of those committees.

Now, this is an important question and it seems to me it would be proper and right to sustain and adopt the majority report in that respect, because those members are thoroughly acquainted with the Territory and with the geography and boundary lines and all this; and it seems to me they

would be the proper ones to constitute that kind of a committee.

The Convention would then have the power to rectify it, if it is unfair, but I am opposed to starting out on sectional basis.

Mr. CHIDESTER. Mr. President, in the committee room, I voted for the majority report, but in considering this matter, I found that the committee was composed of one from each county. Therefore we outvoted these members who represented a large number of citizens.
In order that I might not appear unfair, I signed the minority report. Now, I do not understand that this Convention will change any county lines or anything of that kind and I believe that justice would be done in the matter.

That is why I favor the minority report in the last instance, and I am willing not to support that in order that we may give to them who represent more than we do a fair chance to be represented.

Mr. IVINS. Mr. President, I move an amendment to Mr. Varian's motion, to the effect that the report of the majority be accepted and adopted.


Mr. MURDOCK (Beaver). Mr. President, I object to the outside counties being called cow counties.

A division being called for on the {59} motion of Mr. Ivins to amend, it was carried by the following vote:

Ayes, 63. Noes, 23.

On motion the Convention then adjourned until to-morrow afternoon at 2 o'clock.

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