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NOTE: You may notice textual errors throughout this document, many of which have been left intact from the original text. Should you want to investigate the integrity of the original report, please refer to the original two printed volumes containing the official report of the proceedings and debates.

Roll call showed a quorum present.

Prayer was offered by Delegate Halliday, of Utah County.

Mr. CANNON. Mr. President, I move that we suspend the rules and go into committee of the whole.

Mr. SQUIRES. The chairman of the judiciary committee is not here.

Mr. HART. Mr. President, the chairman of this committee, no doubt, will be here soon. I think we can take up the article on third reading on education and school lands and dispose of it now. I do not know anything connected with it particularly that requires the chairman to be present.

The motion was rejected.

The Convention then proceeded to the third reading of the article entitled education.

Sections 1 and 2 were read.

Mr. PETERS. Mr. President, I desire to renew my motion to strike out section 2. I made the motion on Friday.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. Chairman, we do not want this action to be taken at this stage. Section 2 has received a prolonged consideration by this Convention in committee of the whole. A compromise was reached, as I thought, that would be fairly observed. Certainly that was what might fairly be considered from what was said by those who were opposed to some features of section 2. Now, by striking out this section you leave the question open so far as Salt Lake City and Ogden City are concerned, in relation particularly to the high schools. The amendment that was incubated, slept upon, the nature of the proviso that was adopted to this section, received the unanimous support of the Convention in committee of the whole on yesterday. I trust that we will not have to go over that ground again, and that we may rely upon the good faith of those gentlemen who acquiesced in the suggestions incorporated in that proviso.

Mr. PETERS. Mr. President, I do not desire to take up much time, but I have the same objections to this section to-day that I had on Friday, and I would like to state a few of them. I stated then that I was opposed to a binding down of the proposition. Section 1 of this article provides that the Legislature shall provide for the establishment and maintenance of a uniform system of public schools. Then it goes on to say what the public school system shall be. Now, I do not see any good in trying to form an unchangeable and detailed plan of, a school system.

Mr. PETERS. I am aware of that amendment too. But I know further that the friends of the city schools, according to my idea, are jeopardizing those schools. The Enabling Act, section 6 says, that sections 2, 16, 32, and 36 are granted to the State, the proceeds of the sale of which shall go to the support and maintenance of the common schools. Now, if I understood the remarks of the gentleman from Salt {1332} Lake, the proposition is that Salt Lake City and Ogden shall have the right to maintain a high school. A high school is made a part of the public school system. Being made a part of the public school system, they expect to get a portion of the fund which is obtained from the sale of these lands for the support of their school in proportion to the number of students that they have in attendance who are within the school age. Those children attending the high school will be drawing from the public school fund which is known as the common school fund.

Mr. VARIAN. Wouldn't they be drawing money anyhow between eighteen years and six?

Mr. PETERS. They would be drawing it.

Mr. VARIAN. Of course.

Mr. PETERS. The name of the school is changed. It becomes a high school and a, part of the system, and as the section now reads it says that all common schools shall be free, so it strikes me that we are too good, as the saying is, to the school system, and by that means we have a tendency, according to my idea, of providing future legislation which will be in accordance with the growth and development of the educational system. The tendency is to make schools more practical and we do not know what the future may bring about as to the kind of schools.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. President, it seems to me that section 1 is sufficient to provide for anything which will be found necessary in the future respecting our school system. I am like Mr. Peters. I see no necessity for section 2. It provides a fixed, rigid school system, which, if in the future the Legislature shall deem it wise to change, it would be unable to do so. If we were simply to say that the Legislature shall provide for the establishment and maintenance of a uniform system of public schools, which shall be open to all the children of the State and free from sectarian control, that would be ample for all purposes. As I understand it, that would leave our school system as we have it now.

Mr. BUTTON. Would that first section make public schools free?

Mr. EVANS (Weber). That can be very easily remedied.

Mr. BUTTON. It don't do it as it is.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). All that we would have to say is that the common schools shall be free and

that would not be a limitation upon the Legislature to make other schools free if it desired to do so. Now, I have examined a good many constitutions and I find that this is somewhat out of the ordinary_to fix the particular class of schools or system of schools which the Legislature in all future time must provide for. For instance, you take the great state of New York, with all its complicated and elaborate system of public schools, and it has about three lines, simply saying in effect that it shall be the duty of the state to provide a free common school education free from sectarian control. That does not argue that we are not in favor of the higher schools. We are, in Salt Lake and Ogden, at least, and I desire to maintain them there; but what I object to is a fixed, rigid, unchangeable system of schools in the Constitution. I would rather leave it more flexible, so that it would meet our conditions of the future. If we are prosperous and have plenty of money we can establish a higher grade of schools at the public expense. If we should happen to be poorer and unable to raise sufficient means we should simply limit the public moneys to the education of the children in common schools. I believe that it is the part of wisdom to strike that section out, and I believe it would do no harm to any section of the Territory.

Mr. FARR. Mr. President, I understand from our present system, according to what we have got, we have {1333} fixed the school age in which our children shall have public support to the age of eighteen. We no doubt will have some members of the school and some of our children will graduate at eighteen, while others will want to go on until twenty-one and twenty-two, and so on upwards, as long as they are a mind to go and support themselves, but they get no public support according to the provisions of the law, after they are eighteen, and some of our children are better prepared to graduate at sixteen than others are at eighteen. Now, why should we cut off those that are capable and have got natural abilities and have applied their minds to study and got so far along_to tut them off at sixteen, if they are prepared to go into a high school at sixteen? I say let them have the money that is appropriated for all schools alike, whether they are very smart or not so very smart. Let them have the money until they are eighteen, even if they want to go into a high school, and we cannot provide for them after they are eighteen. Then the benefit of the money of all these different sections will go to them until they are eighteen, and they should be kept on, in my opinion, improving, and be supported out of this money until they are eighteen, the same as if they were not quite so smart, consequently, I think, the section is all right as it is.

Mr. EICHNOR. Mr. President, the way the section originally appeared, no doubt it would be better to have it stricken out, but after the amendment that was proposed by Judge Goodwin and adopted in committee of the whole, I think the section is very good. In other words, the section as now amended is flexible. Any contingencies that may arise in the future in the way of some new school can be provided for. Now, gentlemen, what is the object of striking it out? If Salt Lake City has twenty thousand children of school age, we will just get a certain proportion of the school fund of the State. It does not interfere with any one, either, in the high school or the common school or the kindergarten. Not a county outside of Salt Lake pays one cent more if this provision is placed in the Constitution. It simply guarantees that we may proceed and conduct our high schools in Salt Lake City and Ogden, and such other districts as the Legislature shall provide. A number of objections were raised to the amendment of Mr. Varian at first. Mr. Chidester, of Garfield, and various others objected to the amendment as it was first proposed. It was then. agreed by common consent to let the matter rest until the following day and the defects were cured.

Mr. ELDREDGE. Mr. President, before that motion is put to strike out, I would like to offer an amendment to the section. I would move to strike out the word “kindergarten,” which appears in the second line, and add at the end of “university,” in the fourth line, “and such kindergarten schools as the Legislature may provide for by law.” My idea in moving to strike out the word as it there stands is that I do not think it should be made a part of the system. That would leave it optional with the Legislature to provide for kindergarten schools.

Mr. VARIAN. There is an amendment which would cover that.

Mr. ELDREDGE. Well, if the amendment covers the grounds so that the Legislature could provide for the school {1334} that would reach the end which I was endeavoring to get at.

The amendment proposed by Mr. Eldredge was rejected.

The PRESIDENT. The question is now on the motion to strike out the entire section.

Mr. PETERS. Mr. President, I just desire to ask the gentleman a question. It may be that if I can understand this section right, I will withdraw my motion. The way I understand it, at the present time_and I would like the gentleman from Salt Lake to correct me if I am wrong_it would require each district_that is, the Legislature in passing a school law will naturally require each district to have kindergarten schools in connection with their schools in the district. Section 1 goes on and says what the school system shall consist of, first a kindergarten; they will have to provide for the maintenance of that or its support. Now, if that is not a correct interpretation of this section_that is one of my greatest objections_the districts are not prepared to establish kindergarten schools, except in the cities. I ask if that would be the correct interpretation?

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, it is true that the kindergarten school should become a part of the public school system, but they are not free schools. That is left open to the Legislature. So far as I have been concerned, at no time during the discussion of this question have I had anything to say upon that question. I am dealing now with the free school system here.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). What Mr. Peters wants to know, and I would like to understand it, too_the kindergarten schools would be a part of the public school system, and the public would be required to support them just the same as it would the university, would it not?

Mr. MAESER. No, sir.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, if the Legislature provided for it, yes_by local taxation, I suppose. That question was all gone over the other day. So far as I am concerned, I had nothing to say

about that kindergarten system. I supposed that the house was perfectly satisfied upon that question. As it stands, it will require an act of the Legislature to provide for the support of the kindergarten. If your Legislature that you send up here want kindergarten schools, they will provide for their support. Now, it comes in the same line with the university. What I am dealing with here is the proposition to strike out this declaration that you are going to have a free school system here. Consider it first from the general standpoint. What effect is it going to have upon emigration? If you have a declaration like this in your constitutional law, that you are going to have a free school system in part at least so that it can be changed, doesn't every gentleman know that that will appear more strongly than any other advantage that this people can offer to people looking for a home for themselves and their family_the irrevocable promise that there shall be such a school system here as is in accord with the systems elsewhere in the United States, free to them and to their children? You strike it out or leave it in that uncertain way, and I tell you, gentlemen, you are retrograding twenty years in this Territory. Now, as to the second branch of the proposition, I call attention to the fact, as was suggested by my colleague from Salt Lake, that it will not and cannot in any degree interfere with the sum of money that this city_for instance, to make a pertinent illustration_will be entitled to get. It is not the number of pupils, I will say to the gentleman, who attend the high school or the common school or the kindergarten schools, or the university, that make up the basis of school apportionment. It is the number of children between six and eighteen years of age. Am I not right_eighteen years of age?

Mr. PETERS. Yes, sir.
{1335}
Mr. VARIAN. Now, it makes no difference, sir, whether those children attend school or not; that is. so far as the apportionment of money is concerned. If only a third of them attend the school and there are no laws sufficiently effective to make the remainder attend school, still the proper apportionment of school moneys made up from territorial taxation and county and city taxation are diverted unto the Salt Lake City and county school fund. That being so, it can make no difference to any other county or district how they are expended. This proviso goes to this extent, that if the school fund, so apportioned to a city or district, as I have indicated, shall not be sufficient to maintain these schools free, then the high schools shall be maintained by local taxation. That is fair. If there are enough children in the county and city and if there is enough money to make a sufficient apportionment for our special purposes, it can make no difference, I submit, that we have enough to run a high school too. If we have not we must maintain the common schools with what money we have got, free, and support the high school by local taxation. New, that is all there is in it, and I submit we ought not to be met with further objection on that score.

The PRESIDENT. If the word free was put before “public school,” in the third line of the first section, would not that answer the whole purpose?

Mr. VARIAN. No. That would leave the question open, Mr. President, to have the Legislature determine that the high school should not be a part of the free school system. That is the whole ground that we went over the other day. We are perfectly willing that the outside counties shall have the question left open that way, but we have in this city too much money here_we are too heavily in debt. Our system has gotten under way. The whole community is impressed with it

from the children to the parent, and I am told that it is so in Ogden. We do not want it changed, and we do not want the menace of change fixed by omission or commission upon this statute here, and we simply ask you to leave it as it is. It cannot affect you.

Mr. GOODWIN. Mr. President, I want to impress upon some gentlemen who seem to have a wrong idea of these actual facts. The free school system of Salt Lake City is decidedly the biggest advertisement that Utah has. The high schools of Ogden and of Salt Lake are the wonder of people that come here, and when gentlemen look at these schools they think there is something wrong. They do not stop to think of their effect. That if, for instance, there was a fund of a hundred thousand dollars to go to Salt Lake and to Sanpete, that no matter about the high school, if Salt Lake had six thousand children and Sanpete had four, Sanpete would get four-tenths of all the money and Salt Lake would get six-tenths, and it would not matter whether Salt Lake put her money in high schools or anything else. We went over this thing two hours the other day and spent out of the United States money and I guess our own funds probably one full half day. It probably cost us three hundred dollars_this discussion of this matter the other day. It is all right as it is. I hope the Convention will let it stand.

Mr. ANDERSON. Mr. President, I am opposed to the motion to strike out. I am in favor of the section as it stands. I think that it is broad enough to embrace every system that is possible for us to want in the future, and I think that the common schools should be free. Therefore, I will vote in support of the section as it now stands.

Mr. PETERS. Mr. President, I do not desire to be misunderstood on this proposition. I am not attacking all of the schools of Salt Lake City, and I am not unfamiliar with the school law {1336} either. I think I know nearly every line in the school law and particularly the school system of Salt Lake. I have written that law once and was very familiar with it. Now, I do not want to be misunderstood that I am attacking the high schools, but I claim that if we put in free common schools, Salt Lake can get all that she has now. Why is she so tenacious to hold on to the high schools? The article which provides for the city schools also says that it shall provide for high schools and mechanical schools and manual schools. Now, they only include the schools named. It may be in ten years from now they will want mechanical schools connected with the high schools here in Salt Lake City. They may want manual schools. The tendency of the age is-_

Mr. VARIAN. The gentleman will permit me to call attention to the fact of the amendment adopted by the suggestion of my colleague on yesterday, “such other schools as the Legislature may provide.”

Mr. PETERS. I understand that, but you seem to think I was attacking the high schools. I do not wish to be understood that I was attacking them, but I wanted it to be left open for future legislation, in order that they can legislate according to the progress of the age. I have no desire to attack any system.

The motion of Mr. Peters was rejected.

Section 3 was read.

Mr. GOODWIN. I think that suggestion came in connection with the deaf and dumb and blind asylum.

Mr. VARIAN. Well, the principle is the same. I move to insert after the word “purposes,” in line 8, the words, “and all unclaimed shares and dividends of any corporation incorporated under the laws of this State.”

Supposing that we change that and offer it after the word forfeiture in the 5th line. I would ask the chairman of the committee whether that was considered?

Mr. PIERCE. That was considered in the committee. We are willing the school fund be as large as it possibly can be.

Mr. BOWDLE. Is that not covered by the preceding clause the proceeds of all property that may accrue to the State by escheat or forfeiture?

Mr. VARIAN. No; I do not understand that private property is forfeited to the State except in cases of decedents; they are the only forfeitures that I know of.

The PRESIDENT. Wouldn't that come in the fourth line_the proceeds of all property or stocks unclaimed?

Mr. VARIAN. No, sir; that would presuppose that it must be escheated or forfeited. Escheat and forfeiture of property is a very different question. That is to take in for the benefit of the State all dividends on stock that may be allowed to accumulate and which I am told is done frequently in commercial cities, and no one gets the benefit of it eventually but the holder. It is not called for; it is not escheated property or forfeited property in the sense that it is used there.

Mr. MONS PETERSON. Mr. President, I have a substitute I wish to offer for section 4, as follows:

The university of Utah shall comprise all departments and institutes of higher learning of the public school system, including the school of mines, the agricultural college, the state normal school, and such literary, scientific, and technical schools and colleges as may be established by law, and shall be located at Logan, Cache County, provided that normal schools, experiment stations, and the school of mines may be established by law at other places.

The Legislature shall provide at its first session for the removal of the university to Logan by September 1st, 1896.

nearer the center of population and in my opinion it is the best place every way. Therefore, I am opposed to this substitute.

Mr. KERR. Mr. President, the question has been already quite thoroughly discussed before the Convention. I do not desire to take up the time of the Convention in going over any of the ground which has already been covered in this discussion, but this substitute, as I have stated before, it does seem to me is one of the most important subjects that has come before this Convention. First I desire to call attention to two or three points which I should have replied to before, that have been made on the floor of the Convention, after my remarks on Saturday morning. It has been stated that the students in the agricultural department of Cornell were looked down upon by the students of other departments. In refutation of that, I desire merely to call attention to two points; first the honors won by the present class and the demand for graduates in agriculture as managers of farms, and teachers, testify to the high character of the work done by the students.

Now, I admit, Mr. President, that if the students of the agricultural college of Cornell university were looked down upon by the students of that institution, they would have little opportunity to participate in the oratorical and other contests in that institution. The fact is, gentlemen, that you would hardly know the departments in which the students of that or other great universities are laboring. While there I associated with students in the engineering courses, in agriculture, arts, letters, philosophy, etc., and in the classes in mathematics, in French, in German, in history, and subjects of this kind. We there associated together, in the departments in which we were registered; an hour or two a day at most, and that only during the junior and senior years is devoted to the technical work, or the work which characterizes the several courses, and I state that the students of the agricultural college of Cornell university and the agricultural departments of other institutions are not looked down upon. Again, we find that students in institutions of higher learning gain prestige and position through their intelligence, their ability, their energy, and not from show. As an evidence of that, I need only call your attention to a number of students, whom I know now in eastern institutions. The only class distinction in these great universities is freshman, sophomore, junior and senior. They have their class organization. Who is president of the senior class of Michigan university to-day? A poor farmer boy of Utah, and I grant you that were he looked down upon he would not occupy that exalted position is that great university, and he also is a student in civil engineering, one of the courses of the colleges of agriculture and mechanical arts. Who of all the students of Cornell university, numbering nearly twenty-two hundred, was selected as the man to represent that institution in the great oratorical contest at Chicago? Young Nebeker of Logan; a poor farmer boy, a graduate of one of our Logan colleges. If he were looked down upon, how is it that he was thus recognized? It is ability, I repeat, and intelligence that give to students in these great universities prestige and influence. It is not merely show. It does not depend upon the courses in which they are registered.

In the university of Utah and the agricultural college of Utah, I stated in my remarks Saturday morning, there are certain courses which are the same. The work in the agricultural college is {1338} to a great extent a duplication of that of the university, as taken from the two official catalogues of those institutions. I have noted here of the thirty-seven subjects of instruction in these institutions, only eight are given in the agricultural college that are not being given to-day in the university of Utah. This is official. I need not take your time in enumerating the subjects,

but of thirty-seven subjects, only eight that are given in the agricultural college are not given in the university of Utah. The other twenty-nine subjects are being taught in both institutions, and by a union of these institutions there would result a large saving. Now, again, it was stated by one gentleman that the union of these institutions would be largely an experiment. Why, gentlemen of the Convention, in many of the states throughout the United States for years and years these institutions have been united, and I have here a letter from Commissioner Harris, the United States commissioner of education, in which be makes the statement that in the following states or territories the agricultural colleges are connected with state or territorial universities:

Arizona, Arkansas, California, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Louisiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming, and New York_the greatest agricultural colleges of the nation, the greatest schools of technology of the United States, established in pursuance of the Morrill act, are connected with the universities of these states. Now, the question is, can we afford in this Convention to grapple with this question and finally settle it? I tell you, gentlemen of the Convention, who have been working so hard to keep down the expenses of the State, that which will result in an annual saving of thousands of dollars of the people's money is worthy of our consideration and it is not a question that should not be handled by this Convention. It is a question, I venture to predict again, that will result according to our action in our having no institution of higher learning in Utah or our attempting to maintain the institutions apart, and if we do that, and tax the people sufficiently to maintain these institutions, as separate institutions, we will fasten a mill-stone about the necks of the people which will drag them down to bankruptcy. Can we afford to do it? I say, gentlemen of the Convention, let us take this question and consider it upon its merits. Now, one question as to location. It is evident from the action of this Convention taken yesterday and Saturday that the union of these institutions cannot take place at any other place than Logan. I came to this Convention a strong advocate of union; I have been an advocate of union for three years. I believe that it is in the interests of the people of the State, educationally and financially. The greatest educators of Utah, including the president and vice-president of the university of Utah, and the professors of the university of Utah to-day, say, gentlemen of the Convention, unite these institutions at Logan and let us not starve out the university and the agricultural college. Let us have an institution of higher learning, in which the young people of Utah can prepare themselves for the profession and work of life. After all, are there any serious objections to the removal of the university to Logan? I admit, gentlemen of the Convention, that many of the supposed points against Logan, when examined, do not amount to much. Referring again to Cornell university_I could refer you to many other institutions, but I refer you now to that, because it is an institution with which I am more familiar. That institution is located, not in the center of the state of New York, not in a great city of commercial importance, of great population, but in the small town of Ithica, in the lake regions of New York, and that institution having been established {1339} for twenty-seven years, ranks to-day among the best institutions, not only of the United States but of the world. They have students there from different countries of Europe, from different countries of Asia, and indeed, also from the more civilized countries of Africa. They have students there from all over the world. It is an institution, the growth of which is not paralleled in the history of higher education in the United States. The university spirit predominates there.

The people of Cache County are very much interested in education. That institution already there

is their pride, and if the university goes there it will be the pride of the people of that county; it will be the institution of the county; it will be the life of the county; the papers will take pride in advertising the institution, and they will take part in supporting the institution. As to the question of location, its not being in the center of Utah, I desire to call attention to merely this, students who go there will have only to pay the additional expense of railway transportation from here there, and the difference in living there will far more than counterbalance that. It is in a city, the prevailing atmosphere of which is such as to in no way interfere with the work of the students. I will just call attention to one fact, of the two Utah students who graduated with high honors in Harvard, it having required only three years for them to complete the four years' course, one was honored with being appointed the only member of five hundred students in chemistry, a member of the German society of chemistry. They graduated with high honor in civil engineering, having had charge of their classes in their summer schools. They were graduates of one of our Logan institutions. The president of the senior class of Michigan to-day is a graduate of one of the Logan institutions. I have labored in Salt Lake. I have labored in the university here; I have labored in the college at Logan, and I know that the surroundings there and the climate there are all favorable to the work of higher learning in those institutions. Now, gentlemen of the Convention, meet this fairly, and I state frankly that I did not come here to wage any local fight. All I want is that we take such action as will secure to the people the greatest possible higher educational opportunities for the minimum expenditure of money. Let us consider this union elsewhere than at Logan as impossible. Let us unite the institutions therefore at Logan. Let us, instead of having two struggling, starving institutions, have one institution that is worthy of the State.

Mr. SQUIRES. May I ask the gentleman a question? It has been stated here this morning, and I would like to have you confirm it if you can, that the building at Logan in which the agricultural college is now located is sufficient and will be for many years to come, for the combined uses of the two institutions. Is that a fact?

Mr. KERR. Thank you. I am very glad you asked that question, because I can now answer it. And to show you that I am not prejudiced I will give you exactly the same answer that I gave a year ago when I was then professor in the university of Utah and was in no way connected with the agricultural college or any other institution in Cache County. By converting the boarding house there into a physical and chemical laboratory, the buildings there are ample to accommodate all the students of both institutions, and a year ago when I went there, I took my note book and noted the size and number of all the rooms in the buildings and made a very careful estimate of the capacity of the buildings, and I am free to state, as I stated then, that by converting that boarding house into a physical and chemical laboratory, and it would require but a {1340} very little to do that, the buildings are ample to accommodate all the students of both institutions. Now, really, the expense that will be incurred in moving the university to Logan is simply the expense of transporting the apparatus from here there, in addition to the small amount that would be required to remodel and fit up the boarding house as a laboratory. Now, all of the students could be accommodated in the other building; but to be frank, I said that in my judgment this boarding house should be converted into a chemical and physical laboratory, in order that the students may be amply provided for.

Mr. CANNON. Build another one.

Mr. KERR. The students board with private families. The students of the Brigham Young college do that and the fact is that the students of the agricultural college do the same. Very few of the students occupy rooms in the boarding house, so I am informed. They prefer to live in private families and would do that if the boarding house is used for a laboratory. And in that connection I will state just, locate the institutions there and there will be dormitories or boarding houses established all around the campus there for the accommodation of students. There have not been during the last few years, because they were afraid the institution might be removed and then their property would be lost, but just fix it there permanently and these houses will be built up around there and then the students can be amply provided for free of cost to the State.

Mr. GOODWIN. How far is it now from the college to the town where there are houses?

Mr. KERR. The houses come right up to the college.

Mr. GOODWIN. Is the agricultural land attached to the Logan college proper in all respects for an experimental station?

Mr. KERR. I will be frank with the gentleman from Salt Lake. I will state that the soil there is a good soil and the lands are good. Now, when the State can afford it, my opinion is and has been that there should be one or two other experiment stations in the State.

Mr. GOODWIN. The reason I asked you was some gentleman, I do not remember who, told me that it was impossible to raise anything on the soil without a wind rake behind.

Mr. KERR. That is certainly incorrect. It is a good soil, and in every way adapted to the work going on. I will state also the college has a water right for all the water that is required for any and all purposes; it comes out of the canyon there and is ample to provide all the water needed.

Mr. GOODWIN. Do the shrubs planted on that soil stand up straight or do they lean?

Mr. KERR. I could not say.

Mr. GOODWIN. Some gentleman_if he is a liar he must be outside of this Convention_told me that all the plants leaned towards the college, that the winds from the canyon kept them that way.

Mr. KERR. There is of an evening in Logan a gentle breeze from the canyon there which makes it very pleasant in the summer, but I do not think it is sufficient to interfere with the shrubbery on the hill.

Mr. JAMES. Mr. Chairman, I arise for the purpose of asking unanimous consent of this Convention that a gentleman present here, who I think probably can give this Convention some

information regarding this question that will be a benefit to us all, Doctor Talmage, be permitted to make a few short remarks regarding the university of Utah.

Mr. ANDERSON. Mr. President, before Mr. Talmage speaks I wish to offer an amendment bearing on this subject. I wish to amend the substitute by striking out” Logan, Cache County,” and inserting “Salt Lake City,” and strike {1341} out “university to Logan,” and insert “agricultural college to Salt Lake City.”

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the doctor will talk to us a few moments on this educational question.

Mr. TALMAGE. Mr. President and gentlemen, I cannot refrain from expressing my very great gratitude for this unexpected and I believe unparalleled honor that you bestow upon me. I am informed that certain delegates in the Convention have been inclined to doubt the statements that educators connected with the university here have felt to sanction the proposition to move the institution to Logan. I would say in that connection simply this, I believe that every earnest educator in Utah recognizes the absolute necessity of the union of these institutions, in order that anything may be accomplished worthy of the institution of higher education in the State of Utah. I believe that the State is within two hundred thousand dollars of the total indebtedness allowed by the Constitution, and that for several years the agricultural college, the university of Utah, perhaps also the reform school and other territorial institutions, have been to a great extent conducted upon borrowed money, the indebtedness of the Territory increasing from year to toyear. I submit that if these institutions remain apart, it will be absolutely impossible for the Territory or the coming State to provide funds ample for the work and that in consequence we will have two weak institutions.

I believe that the educators here cannot be charged with having any personal aims in this movement or any selfishness at heart at all. It surely must appear to be a purely professional motive which prompts them_educationally. We regard it as altogether a wrong principle to separate these institutions. Professor Kerr has read to you a letter from the commissioner of education of the United States, and it is but a few weeks ago that I had the pleasure of a personal interview with that distinguished gentleman, and a conversation with him concerning this matter, in which he urged for the sake of the future State that we would refrain from that destructive policy that is ruining the educational interests of a number of states and territories which have become virtually a by-word in the educational world through the separation of these interests and the segregation of these different departments. In the department of domestic arts_and it was to that department to which Professor Kerr alluded_there are thirty-seven subjects offered in the agricultural college, and of those thirty-seven twenty-nine are carried on at great expense in the university of Utah to-day. The classes in those several courses are of sufficiently small size to be conducted by one and the same teacher and with practically the same equipment, except in the case of laboratory work, which of course would require new apparatus and material from year to year. I have been in favor of the union of these institutions at Salt Lake City. I believe those who have conversed with me upon the matter know that full well. But location has always been_I was about to say, secondary_but I will say, very, very greatly subordinate to he question of union. I think that without this union there is little prospect of a strong institution being built up in Utah. I

am not here and do not take advantage of this courtesy you have extended to me to advocate Salt Lake City or Logan, or any other place in the Territory. I would rather see the combined institution placed in the extreme south than to see both institutions placed in Salt Lake City and kept separate, for the reason that there would be a waste of energy that will consume the funds and result in ill effects as long as the institutions remain separate. I cannot believe that for fifty years to come Utah is going to increase in population and wealth so greatly as to {1342} make it advisable to carry on these institutions separately.

If they were combined it would seem to me both reasonable and in every way proper that the name agricultural college of Utah should be retained, that the identity of the institution should be retained. To me agricultural college stands, I believe, supreme above all other courses that are offered in the Territory in importance. I am a lover of agriculture and of agricultural pursuits and agricultural arts, and would do nothing, if I had the power to do it, that would hinder the work of that institution. I have never cast a reflection upon it, and have only had words of honor and praise upon my tongue for the institution. I submit that the effectiveness will increase, that its good works will be multiplied by making it work !n harmony with other departments. Its work will be strengthened in its academic branches, which every student of agriculture ought to be trained in, and that without special expense to the institution. I understand that some question has been raised as to the possibility of that institution losing its appropriation from the government if it be made part of another educational institution. I ask you to consider that act providing for the endowment and for the support of agricultural colleges, and you will see that one part of that appropriation is to go to the institution that maintains the agricultural department, or an agricultural college. That was plainly, then, the intention of the lawmakers that in most cases_in many cases the institution known as the agricultural college of the State would be a part of some other institution. I want to take this advantage of your kindness, to urge most earnestly the welfare of higher education of the country and State of Utah, and to submit that that can be achieved by union. I have nothing to say in favor of Logan. There are others who have represented the claims of that city. I have absolutely nothing to say in favor of Salt Lake City, more than I have said. There are others far abler than I to urge those claims. But provide for union. Leave the matter for the Legislature as to the location, or provide for such now, but, gentlemen, this state of uncertainty is turning away every stream of endowment that was approaching our institution. No one will give anything to the institution while it is in an uncertain state. I am in a position to know that, to realize that there are many who are willing to help the institution of the State if permanently located and established, and that its future growth is to some degree at least assured. The support of an educational institution to-day is not what it was a few years ago. Education is advancing every year and the university is an expensive institution. An agricultural college is not a whit less expensive and if these are united the expense thus saved will be sufficient to increase the efficiency of the institution very greatly. Mr. President and gentlemen, I thank you again most heartily.

Mr. KIESEL. I would like to ask the professor if he would be kind enough to give us his views of the metric system?

Mr. VARIAN. One thing at a time.

Mr. HALLIDAY. One thing at a time.

Mr. JAMES. I would like to ask the gentleman a question, if this Convention will permit. I want to ask the professor if from his experience as a professor and his knowledge of locality throughout the world, he knows a place within the whole United States that has the advantages, from a scientific standpoint, as well as a central standpoint, for a great school that Salt Lake City has?

Mr. THURMAN. I object to that {1343} question. I ask that the professor be not put in that embarrassing position. He has avoided it in his speech and it is a wrong to him.

Mr. TALMAGE. I have nothing to say on that. I simply desire to repeat that I have nothing to say as to the location. I urged before the Legislature at the last session that the question of union be discussed upon its merits, without any sectional feelings intervening, and I have only waived that in one instance, when certain statements were made regarding the location in the north that I thought misrepresented some facts connected with Salt Lake City.

Mr. JAMES. I want to state, Mr. President, just a few words. I have no personal preference for any locality. I have simply a particular desire that the best good shall be done for the greatest number. Now, there isn't anything that has come up before this Convention that I have been more deeply interested in than this school question, since we convened. However, I have refrained from saying anything, for the very reason that I realize there are those who are better able to talk to you and explain to you the necessities in this case than I am. But must say_and I do not say it, sir, because I live in Salt Lake City, but I say it because my observations compel me to say it, that I never have had the privilege, I never have had the opportunity of witnessing any spot within the United States that is so advantageously situated for a great school as Salt Lake City. It has geological surroundings. It has attractions, it being right upon the great highway through this great nation where everybody must come if they pass from east to west. It is a point that has not only a national reputation, but is known all over the world. It has attractions which are equal if not superior to any place between the Missouri river and California, and that much I did want to say in the interests of what I believe ought to be one of the greatest schools that this nation can possibly have within its confines, and that it should be established here in Salt Lake City.

Mr. HAMMOND. Mr. President, I am opposed, sir, to this substitute offered by the member from Grand County, although he is my son-in-law. He is a republican and I can forgive him, but he is off_plumb wrong. The idea of moving the university, as his substitute provides, to Cache County_why he may as well take it to the North Pole so far as San Juan could get any good from it. [Laughter.] I am astonished that a member from the south would make such a motion. Professor Kerr converted me the other day to the doctrine of union, and I have not in any manner departed from that position which I took then. Union first and union last and all the time of these school systems, and when it comes to location I leave Professor Kerr. I cannot follow him any longer. Salt Lake City, if we are going to locate it, is the place. Why, sir, we people in San Juan, when we pray, we turn our faces to the north_the great temple city, and I feel that Salt Lake is

entitled to it by every consideration. It is the great city of wealth and renown and population, and beautiful location on the sides of the mountain. Then again, Mr. President, I feel that they need it. They are absolutely and hopelessly in debt, and it will help to stir up business enterprises here and to create a way by which I believe they will get out of debt sooner or later.

Mr. IVINS. I understand, gentlemen, from this substitute and the amendment that two propositions are now fairly before this Convention. First, the union of these two institutions of learning, the university of Utah and the agricultural college. My position in regard to that question has already been defined. Therefore, I shall not devote time to its consideration. I {1344} am in favor of this union. The next important question is that of locality. If these two institutions are to be united, if this new State is to have one great institution of learning, shall it be located at Logan, in the extreme north of the Territory, or shall it be located at some other point? There are considerations, perhaps, in favor of both the substitute offered by the gentleman from Grand, and the amendment offered by the gentleman from Beaver. My own feelings lead me entirely to support the amendment to the substitute. I do not believe that it is best for this Territory that these two institutions united should be located in Cache County. If they are to be located at all, gentlemen, it seems to me that this valley in which the city of Salt Lake is situated is pre-eminently the most proper place for the location of an institution of learning of this character. In the first place here is the center of population of the whole Territory. An institution of this character of necessity must draw its support largely from Salt Lake County, if it is supported at all, and to my mind this is one question which should not be overlooked. From this city and from this county a large proportion of the support which shall be rendered to an institution of this character must of necessity come so far as population is concerned.

Again, in this city and county is situated a great proportion of the wealth of the Territory, and I apprehend if this institution is ever to become a great institution such as it is anticipated it will become, it must be made so largely from bequests from men of wealth. The point referred to by the gentleman from Salt Lake, Judge Goodwin, when this question was under consideration a few days ago, is one that ought not to be overlooked, and I apprehend that more bequests would be bestowed upon the institution if located here near the mass of those who are able to give than could possibly be the case should it be located in the northern part of the Territory. Now, another question that is one of importance in connection with this matter is this, in this institution we expect that medicine will be taught, surgery will be taught, there will be a school of mines attached, civil engineering will be taught, and I want to ask you to stop for a moment and consider the advantages that are afforded in Salt Lake City, above those that can be afforded in any other city in the Territory, so far as these branches are concerned. Here are the hospitals, here are the places where students can get practical information, that cannot be obtained so far as medicine and surgery are concerned in any other place. Here are the great mills, here the mines are within easy access, where students can become practically acquainted with that industry. Here the electric works are situated, here are the great machine shops, in fact, gentlemen, here are all of the facilities necessary for the acquirement of knowledge in these branches to which I have referred, facilities that for a generation at least to come never can be had in Logan.

Another thing, Salt Lake City is the central city of this Territory; it is the great overland highway from the east to the west. Here professors will visit in passing to and fro. Here educators will

come, and during their temporary stay is it not a fact opportunities will be afforded to the pupils of this institution to get the benefit of an occasional lecture, to get the benefit of their opinions, of their experience, which will not possibly be the case if they shall have to diverge from the regular course of travel and spend a day or two perhaps in going into an insolated neighborhood in order to make visits to this institution? It is no small matter, this to which I refer_no small matter, gentlemen, that these opportunities should be afforded. Again, this institution, if the two institutions are united, will become the pride of the people of this new {1345} State. It is eminently proper that it should be located where tourists, where travelers, where men from other regions may easily have access to it, that its renown may go abroad through the reports that will be made by individuals of this character, which again can never be the case if it is located in an isolated region. From a financial standpoint, what will be the result? I do not know just what may be the value of those buildings and grounds in Logan, but I do know that we will lose in Salt Lake City ten acres of ground in the very heart of this town with valuable buildings, perhaps also concessions that have been made hen upon the bench, and I am of the opinion that from a financial standpoint the loss will be much greater if interests in Salt Lake City are abandoned than will be the loss if interests in Logan, Cache County, are abandoned.

I contend that the climate in this valley is better adapted to agriculture, it is better adapted to the establishment of an institution of this kind, than is the climate further to the north. I maintain that that isolated point is not proper for the establishment of an institution that is to be the only institution of the character established in this State. Now, in opposition to that comes a sentiment. The agricultural college we say has already been established at Logan and it is unjust that we should take it up and move it away, thus depriving the people of the benefits we have derived from it. I want to call your attention to the fact that the university of Utah has been established in Salt Lake City, ever since the establishment of this Territory. I opine that it never was the design of those who established it and it is not the design of the people of Utah to-day that it shall be torn up and removed to an isolated point in this Territory. It is said that the moral influence surrounding the institution in Cache Valley would be so much better than the moral influence surrounding it in Salt Lake Valley, that this alone is sufficient reason why the change should be made to that point. There may be something in this argument. I believe there is, but as a rule students who attend the university of Utah will have acquired sufficient years and wisdom to take care of themselves. All things considered, I want to say here that I shall favor the amendment offered by the gentleman from Beaver. If there is to be a union of these two institutions, I shall vote for that union at Salt Lake City. That failing, I shall then vote for union at Logan because I believe union at Logan is better than nothing, but to my mind this is the point eminently fitted. There is no better. I do not believe in the whole world there is a point with surroundings better calculated to establish and successfully maintain an institution of this character than right here in Salt Lake Valley.

Mr. PIERCE. Mr. President, there are one or two facts that I desire to call the attention of the Convention to. The property upon which the university is now located, by figures which I obtained this morning from men who put conservative values upon property, is worth two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. It is a block in the heart of the city, and as has been stated by the previous speaker, if the union is at Logan, we will lose the entire benefit of that property. There is a condition in the deed. When the deed was first given to the university by the city for

that block the block was to be the property of the university as long as it was used for university purposes. The last month_I think it was about the 13th day of March, the city of Salt Lake changed the conditions in that deed. They provided that that property or the proceeds thereof should be used for the university as long as the university remained in Salt Lake City, with a view of locating or so that the university proper could be located upon the Rawlins' {1346} site granted by the government. So that here is the proposition right square before us. If we locate the university upon the site in Fort Douglas, where it-should be located, we have at once property worth two hundred and fifty thousand dollars to be converted into cash and to be used as a fund for the purpose of establishing houses, and dormitories, and whatever is necessary upon the Rawlins' site. It seems to me, with two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, that we can do an immense amount of work towards starting our university upon a proper footing, and that with the two hundred and fifty thousand dollars so granted to us by the city, we will place this university, as far as building is concerned, far ahead of the condition that the agricultural. college at the present time is in, and in addition to that we have a large tract of laud_sixty acres up there that is valuable in itself. And it seems to me that all of the arguments are in favor of locating the university, if it is united, in Salt Lake City. And another thing that I desire to call the attention of the Convention to is this, in regard to the university, that during the last year there was one endowment made to the university to the amount of sixty thousand dollars by the Salt Lake Literary and Scientific Association. I say, gentlemen, that if the university was moved to Logan, if it had been in Logan, we would not have received that endowment, and I think that the university should be in the center of population where men of wealth, men who are capable of endowing chairs in universities, are situated, so that their attention shall be immediately brought to the institution and that they can grow up with the surroundings and in that way have a love for the institution, which they could not have if they were located in an isolated part of the Territory where there is not the center of wealth as there is in this city. There is a time soon coming when I hope that the university of Utah or the agricultural college, if they are united together, will be able to maintain themselves wholly upon endowments and the land grants, and I believe the time is not far distant, but, gentlemen we must cultivate a spirit in favor of education and we must build up everything tending toward that, and the location in the center of the population of the State of Utah is where we want the university. And another thing, if you locate the university at Logan, then Salt Lake City, Salt Lake City, being the center of population, instead of our Utah boys going to Logan to the university, they will go to eastern colleges and western colleges, and the university would not have the advantage that it would have if it was located in Salt Lake City; and I think, gentlemen, that every argument that has been made or that can be made is in favor of the location here in Salt Lake City.

Mr. THATCHER. Are you quite sure, Mr. Pierce, that the Literary and Scientific Society which contributed sixty thousand dollars to the university would not have done so had it been located elsewhere?

Mr. PIERCE. That is my moral conclusion, sir. I say, I am not quite sure, but I say that here is the proposition that I make, Mr. Thatcher, that wealthy citizens, those who endow universities_the most wealthy citizens, as I believe, reside in the center of population everywhere, wherever you go, and their attention must be immediately called to the conditions, to the needs and necessities, before they endow, so that being right upon the ground we are more likely to get endowments if

it is located in Salt Lake City than we could if it was located in an isolated part of the Territory.

Mr. THATCHER. I just simply wanted to say that as an officer of the Literary and Scientific Society, I voted with my colleagues for this sixty thousand dollars to go the university, and I {1347} do not think the location would have had any effect upon my mind.

Mr. PIERCE. That may be so with you, because you, perhaps, desired it elsewhere.

Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President, I have struggled as hard as I have been able to keep this question out of this Convention. I do not believe it has any business here, I mean as far as location is concerned, and at the proper time in this discussion I shall offer an amendment by which the question of union may be determined by this Convention and the question of location will be left to the Legislature, where it belongs. I understand that such an amendment now would be out of order. In taking this position, Mr. President, I trust that I am keeping myself consistent with the positions that I have taken heretofore upon this question. I am opposed to both of the proposed amendments. I place my reasons upon the same ground that I placed them yesterday. Either of these proposed amendments, if adopted, would prevent the Legislature through all coming time from establishing any kind of a branch or department of the university in any other part of the State. To that I was opposed yesterday, and I had gentlemen yesterday standing shoulder to shoulder with me, who voted with me on that proposition, who to-day will abandon me in this Convention and vote on the other side. I stand there to-day, and I say, gentlemen, if you are wise men you will come to that position yet. In deference to these professors_Professor Kerr and President Talmage, and all the educators whose opinions we have had the advantage of, I shall yield_I won't say my judgment, for I never had a decisive judgment on the question of union until I heard them, but I am now in favor of union, if it can be accomplished without too great a sacrifice. I concede that we ought to make some sacrifice for the sake of union, but I say the question of location ought to be left to the Legislature of the State, and from what I see of men in this Convention and what I know of their opinions and their indecisions and their doubts and their fears on this question, I say it ought to be a question for the Legislature, and it ought to be made a question in the campaign, and let the people all over the Territory of Utah know that this thing is to be decided by the Legislature, and let men come here instructed what to do, and not take up longer the time of this Convention. Gentlemen, I intend to vote against both of these amendments and I propose to offer one on the lines that I have suggested.

Mr. SQUIRES. Mr. President, in view of the great importance of this subject, and along the line, indicated by Mr. Thurman, would it not be possible for us_it would have to be, I suppose by unanimous consent_to vote upon the question of union, disassociated from the question of location, so that the prejudices of the delegates here would not enter into the question of union? If it could be possible, I would like to have the consent of the Convention to a vote squarely upon the question of union first, and then if it is decided that we shall unite these two institutions, let us discuss the question of location. I ask unanimous consent to have a vote taken first upon the question of union or no union.

Mr. HART. Mr. President, I object to that; it cannot be considered, in an abstract sense. It is not a question of theory but it is a condition.

Mr. JAMES. May I interrupt the gentleman for a moment? He is pretty well acquainted with the values of land in that locality. I would like to ask what he considers that land worth?

Mr. CANNON. I will answer that question in the course of my remarks. This tract of land, gentlemen, as has been stated by some of the other speakers, is a very valuable one. It comprises 132 rods frontage, overlooking the city of Salt Lake, situated immediately upon the brow of the hill east of us, and could not be excelled any place in the world so far as the location is concerned. It has been urged as an objection to it by some of our friends from Logan and other parts that there is no water with which to conduct their experiments in agriculture. I would call attention to the fact that Parley's canyon conduit brings water from Parley's canyon, one of the largest streams in the valley, and conducts it in pipes above this and at a sufficient elevation to water the entire tract. The water coming from Parley's canyon is largely in excess of the quantity which was used formerly by the residents of Salt Lake City, to water their entire city. And it was obtained principally by an exchange of the waters of Jordan river made with the farmers of Sugarhouse and Farmers precincts in this county. Many hundreds of acres of land well watered by the waters which come to us through this canyon conduit formerly were watered and that water is now utilized by the citizens of Salt Lake. It could, should the city of Salt Lake see fit to, grant the water, and I have no doubt that it would be used in utilizing that entire tract with as great an advantage as 9 obtained at Logan upon that point. I have heard the objection raised that the soil is not suited there. I would state, gentlemen, that some of the finest soil that we have in Utah Territory is found upon this bench immediately surrounding Salt Lake City. Some of the finest grapes that we produce and everything of this character can be found there. You have only to go to the fruitful gardens of our citizens in the upper bench, in what is known as the dry district, to see the character of soil that exists there. In addition to that the climate here is more suitable than it possibly could be in the location proposed at Logan.

I have in my hand the report of the United States department of agriculture and weather bureau, which shows the temperature in the month of December, 1894, in both stations, showing the great variation that exists. From this I find that the mean temperature at Salt Lake City for that month was 31.4 degrees, the mean temperature was 22 degrees at Logan, the difference in temperature was 9.4 degrees. It is well known to the people of Utah Territory, and I need not discuss it, that Logan is not so situated that you can conduct with the greatest advantages the experiments that should be conducted for the benefit of people of Utah in an agricultural line. The people of Davis County do not get the benefits that would result, and the people of all the mountain valleys and counties do not, that would result from the establishment of agricultural

college in a location where they do not have to raise onions under the cover of glass; from a location where they do not have to do that which they do in Logan, and it is no disrespect to Logan that I say that which I do. I have been informed by some of the gentlemen who visited Logan recently, one of whom was a {1349} professional gardener, that he made an examination of shrubs and trees that are growing upon the agricultural grounds there, and that he found the shrubs and trees which had been planted for a certain number of years, were only about one-half the growth that the same character of trees would have in valleys similar to Utah County, Davis County, and Salt Lake County, and I submit that it is not fair to the people of Utah that the main agricultural college should be located in a climate of that character. As I understand the gentleman, a university is a collection of colleges, and in this line there should probably be connected with the university a school of mines. We have in Salt Lake City advantages that could not possibly be had in Logan in the way of establishing a school of mines. The ore comes from all parts of the Territory, not only from Utah but from the surrounding states and territories, is brought in here and handled by our smelters. Samples can be secured and the people who are studying the subject of mining_and in a school of mines they would have immense advantage in that way. The same would be true of the school of metallurgy. Here, for fifteen cents, students can get upon the cars and go and see the practical operation of our smelters, as they treat the various ores which are handled by them and see the principles which they study in school applied in a practical way. We have had gentlemen upon this floor say that they believed in practical education. We have had men say that people who are educated in Salt Lake City are not good for anything when they go back to any other place, but there are men in Salt Lake City_boys who come from all parts of the Territory who come here with the special purpose of being trained in manual training, learning different kinds of trades, and no place in Utah will present the advantages for this kind of training that Salt Lake City will. If you want a practical education, you should place your institution at a point where that practical training can be given.

In the same way, if we have a school of medicine. you must have your school of medicine so located that they can visit the hospitals and see there the practical operations that are performed. You do not want to train your doctor so that he has read how to treat a limb that needs to be set, but you want him trained that he has seen those limbs set where they are broken, that he has seen the knife used where an incision is necessary to be made, and that he knows practically how to do that which is done. If you go to Logan, I submit that you have no hospitals there, that the climate is such that invalids and others will not seek it for the purpose of being treated, and that you will not have the advantages of a school of medicine that you would have in Salt Lake City. Again, we should have our college of dentistry. There are not people enough in Cache County to supply a good class of clinics in dental operations. You should be located in a place where the students can take the advantage of practisingupon a large population, willing to submit themselves at the low price that students usually charge, for the gold they put in their teeth. Then we come to the subject of the college of law. Who is there who has a large practice willing to leave his law practice and to devote a day coming and going to and from Logan, in order that he might appear before a class there and lecture upon some subject upon which he is a specialist. We have, in Salt Lake City, a most eminent bar. Its members are noted throughout the country and many of them would take pride and pleasure in lecturing before a law school were it in such a place that they could leave their business for a few hours or for a few minutes and drive to the location, deliver their {1350} lecture, and return to their business. We have a great many lawyers. I do not need to

instance them, because, besides those we have upon this floor we have Judge Sutherland, who is an eminent man in his line. We have Mr. Rawlins, who was our late delegate to Congress, who has written text books in some lines upon which he is noted, and we have countless others who would not and could not afford to give their time to go to Logan, but who would practically give, free of charge, their services for the university located in Salt Lake City. In addition to that I desire to call your attention to another advantage that there would be. The Deseret Museum, which is situated here and which contains a large collection for the use of students, has been placed free of charge at the disposal of students of the university, those who are studying geology, and other sciences of this character, and were it removed from this city, they would not have that advantage. But it is stated that in Salt Lake City it is not moral, the atmosphere is not morally good and that they should not send their students to Salt Lake City; that they are afraid that they would be contaminated. I regret that vice exists upon the earth, I regret that it exists in Salt Lake City, but I submit, gentlemen, that you cannot, by locality, make men moral. People in Logan may be good and Logan may be a good site for morality, but I submit that you will find in Logan as in other places immorality, and that if a large college is established there vice will follow in its wake, as it has done in other places and in other cities. You must regulate your institution in such a way that you can carefully shield the innocent who attend your college or university. You must teach them that they must resist temptation, not that they must yield to it, because I claim that true virtue consists, not in having no opportunity to commit a crime, but that it consists in doing that which is right when temptation is placed before you. I submit that if bad influences exist in Salt Lake City, good influences also exist, and I believe that those who have taught school here_their testimony will bear me out when I say that there is no more tendency to drunkenness, no more tendency to vice of various kinds among the students of Salt Lake City, and among those who attend the university here, than are found in cities of smaller kinds where there are to a certain extent vices and temptation.

The question has been raised as to the price of board, and it is claimed that in Logan the advantages of board will more than offset the expense of traveling so far by rail. I desire, upon this point, to call your attention to the fact that many of the students who would attend would be right at their own homes in Salt Lake City. Think of that for a moment, gentlemen. We have in Salt Lake City to-day over twelve thousand school children. We have in Salt Lake County over eighteen thousand school children, Salt Lake City and Salt Lake County combined comprise more than one-fourth of the entire school population of the Territory of Utah, and I claim that in the higher grades the proportion is greater than taking the entire average. I claim that there are more boys and girls prepared to enter upon a university course in proportion to the population in Salt Lake City and in Salt Lake County than any other city or county in the Territory, and I believe the statistics will bear that out. We have an attendance at the high school in this city at the present time of over four hundred, an increase in the past year of over one hundred and fifty, and when they graduate from that high school (its merits have been described frequently to you) they are admitted to the university of California, without an examination. They are admitted to other universities without an examination, {1351} the grade of that high school is so high in that respect. Now, I claim that it is not true that board is cheaper in Logan than it is in Salt Lake City, when the quality of the food is considered and the kind that is partaken of. [Laughter.] I claim that you can get just as good food and as cheap in Salt Lake City as you can in Logan. I have in my hand a letter from the secretary of the faculty of the university which bears that out. There is

one other thing. I desire to call your attention to the close proximity of Salt Lake City to a very populous district. We have around us on the north Davis County with a school population in 1893, of 2,505; Morgan County with 652, just over the mountains on the north-east; Summit County, 2,622; Tooele County, 1,268; Utah Comity, outside of Provo, with 7,364; and Provo itself with 1,823; Wasatch County, right over to the southeast 1,411; Weber County, outside of Ogden, 3,087; and Ogden City, 3,885; a total within a very small radius of Salt Lake City of 41,847, much more than half of the school population of Utah Territory. I call attention to that fact, gentlemen, and that this is naturally the center, and the place for the location of your university. In addition to this, I desire to call your attention to the fact that nearly every family in Utah has either a relative or an intimate acquaintance in Salt Lake City, to whom they can confide their children if they desire to send them. Go to the outside counties and ask where their relatives principally live and you will find that nearly ever family, if we go from San Juan to Rich County in the north, have representatives and friends in Salt Lake City, to whom they can entrust their children, if they desire so to do.

The question has been brought up about the buildings, and upon this subject I made an investigation, and I find to-day they can build buildings similar to those at Logan at a reduction of from twenty-five to fifty per cent. from what they were built for at the time when they were built. I have in my hand, and were time not too precious, I would read to you an estimate from the leading builders and contractors of Salt Lake City, covering everything from the stone of the foundation to the paint that would cover the buildings, and the glass within them.

Mr. JAMES. The gentleman did not answer my question.

Mr. CANNON. The question, I believe, was as to the value of the site that has been offered by Congress for a university location. I have made inquiries among different real estate agents in Salt Lake City and those most intimate with the matter, and I found that the lowest estimate offered was two hundred thousand dollars as the value of the ground, and that it ranged from that to three hundred thousand dollars as the value of the site that was offered by Congress.

Mr. KERR. In case the university is not located there, or in case it is located there, is it not true that that site is absolutely unmarketable. That it has a value only as the use for a site?

Mr. CANNON. The site has a market value independent of that which would attach to the university. It could be sold in ordinary times, for the prices named.

Mr. KERR. Could it be sold at all?

Mr. CANNON. This cannot be sold at all without the consent of Congress. It belongs to the government.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I regret that this discussion has been precipitated. I think sober reflection will convince the members of this Convention that the proposition and the discussion is out of place in the deliberations of a Constitutional Convention. The location of State institutions such as these is purely one of legislative concern. The Legislature should not be

restricted permanently the disposition and location of institutions of learning or of other institutions connected with the {1352} administration of the State government, such as prisons and reform schools. No such question as is propounded here for our discussion was presented or considered by the people, nor did anybody dream that a matter of this kind would be precipitated, having the result and the only result, if it shall be carried out to its logical conclusion, of embittering and antagonizing sections of the Territory, on the very eve of the vote to be taken upon the ratification of this Constitution, against each other. It is impossible in the very nature of things that this matter can be pursued further to a definite ending without such results. If you accomplish the union of these institutions permanently by this declaration n your organic law, necessarily and logically you will dispose of the question by fixing the location. If you remove from Logan the agricultural college and fix it permanently at any other point, you will disturb and antagonize and embitter those people to an extent which cannot be appreciated. If you act in the other way the same results will follow. You never knew of a more disturbing cause in politics in the relations of different sections of people in one commonwealth towards each other than interference of the kind indicated with existing institutions_with even county seats, and you cannot hope to escape the consequences which always follow such interference. I submit that none of these institutions ought to be fixed permanently by this Convention. The people did not expect it; it is taking a snap judgment, upon this and upon those directly interested the different localities. It is assuming a legislative fact which is unnecessary and uncalled for, and which ought not to be intruded upon this Convention. Already I can see and feel indications of the coming storm in this Convention. Already I can feel the bitterness in advance, which is being instilled into the minds of some of our delegates on the floor, and that is bound to go on and grow, and every man on this floor knows it. It cannot help but do so. The arguments that have been presented here, able and instructive and interesting as they have been and are, are in my judgment out of place here.

I am not prepared to vote for a union of these institutions in this Constitution. If I am forced to vote for a union, naturally you may expect me because of circumstances, as well as because of my convictions, to vote to place the institution, as united, at the city of my home and residence. The same impulses that will move me will move others like me on this floor, as they move men under all circumstances in such conditions. But I am opposed to doing anything more with this question here than to leave it open as it is. Let it become a matter of legislative concern. Let it be disposed of by the people through their representatives, when they shall be called upon to discuss the question, in accordance with the wants and necessities of the people at the time. Let us not put into this Constitution something, which I tell you, gentlemen of this Convention, in my judgment, may result in its defeat at the polls next November. Are we going to invite_absolutely invite every antagonism. every feeling of hostility that may be engendered against this Constitution, so that united, perchance, they may be able to defeat it? As I have taken occasion to say once before upon this floor, I did not come here to play politically or otherwise in constitution making. I came not here with any secret reservation that when we have gotten through I shall go forth and attempt, in so far as I may be permitted to do so, to defeat it. I desire to have this Constitution carry and settle once and forever these questions that have been agitating us for three or four years, and I deprecate the dragging in, unnecessarily, into this question a matter of this kind which cannot but help build up a large {1353} and hostile element who shall be in opposition to the ratification of this Constitution. And why should we? Why are

we called upon to do it? Why not leave every institution of the State just as it is, just as it always has been, subject to the control of the Legislature, who will presumably act in obedience to the demands and interests of the people.

In that view of the case, sir, it seems to me that it is just simply taking up time unnecessarily to discuss the propriety or the advantage of union or non-union. We take these institutions as we find them. We are not sent here to enact a code of laws governing institutions of learning, nor to permanently and irrevocably, as it were, dispose of the question which was not and has not been considered by this people. We were supposed to take everything, so far as the State institutions were concerned, and their locations, as they are found and to frame a Constitution which should limit only the powers of the Legislature, not entirely, but should contain such restrictions and those only as should be necessary to preserve the freedom and the quality of the people, and that is all, and when we have accomplished that, we have done all that we were sent here to do, and the people still retain the power as they have it now, and have had it heretofore, to dispose of these questions as in their judgment they shall see fit. I would like to see this substitute that is suggested by Mr. Thurman. I do not know of course how it shall be framed, but the underlying thought of it meets with my approbation and I would like to see it adopted and incorporated in this Constitution, and in that view I trust that this substitute, however it shall be amended, shall be voted down. I submit, Mr. President, that if gentlemen will stop just fora moment and see the signs of this Convention they need not go any farther. They will appreciate the solemnity of this question as it shall and will affect the people in the different sections whose interests are at stake here, and they will pause long before they undertake such a radical change as this_the more radical because it is proposed to be made permanent in the organic law. I say that the university of Utah and the agricultural college can wait_wait as the people of this State must wait until the people shall be enabled to take care of them as they shall be taken care of. They are not alone to be considered in this question. The grave responsibilities, the serious expenses of the new State government are taxing the judgments of those who are called upon to investigate and consider them. Let them wait. Go along as best you can. You may safely rely upon the honor and good faith of the people by whose suffrages they were established in the future, as occasion may serve to perpetuate and maintain them in accordance with the dignity they have and should have. I ask you now to stop and think of this question. Do not let it degenerate into a log rolling proposition, and that is where you are coming to, “if you will vote for my place I will vote for yours.” When you dispose of this, you will have this other matter coming up between the other State institutions or you may have, and you will not be dealing with this question with the dignity and with the propriety that it should be dealt with. I submit to vote down this amendment or proposition as a whole and leave the matter open to the Legislature as it ought to be without any mandate or without any restriction except that until otherwise provided by law, these separate institutions shall remain as now existing.

Mr. CHIDESTER. Mr. President, the thoughts expressed by Mr. Thurman and Mr. Varian are my own. [Laughter and applause]. They were not my own thoughts; I had them before they expressed them. [Laughter.]

Mr. THURMAN. I did not suppose you were going to give us away.
{1354}

Mr. VARIAN. I want to ask the gentleman a question. If it is desirable to test the sense of this Convention upon the question of union, why not make a motion to indefinitely postpone the substitute and the amendments offered, and if that should be carried that would settle the question of union. If it should not be carried, it would determine the sense of the house the other way, and we would go on with the amendment.

Mr. CHIDESTER. That is just exactly what I would like to see done. [Laughter.]

Mr. BUTTON. Mr. President, haven't we a right to ask a division of that question, when it is put?

The PRESIDENT. Yes, sir.

Mr. CHIDESTER. Well, I ask for it.

Mr. CREER. And the capitol building?

Mr. THATCHER. And she ought to have the population of the Territory, and no doubt would have, if our people who work on the farms could only move their farms here. Now, the real facts are, that if we could get together all in one county and develop that, perhaps it would be better for us. Who, that has had experience in sending their children abroad, does not know that when a student is sent away from home, and, therefore, is separated from his companions in amusement, he makes more progress in three years than he would make at home in four? If any one will take the pains to examine the records of the university here, and take the number of students who have attended that institution during the past forty-five years, you will find that the predominance as to numbers are from Salt Lake, but you will not find that the graduating classes are on that side. It is just so at Logan. It is the students that come from abroad, that leave the horses and the sleighs, and the theaters, and the parties, and the amusements, behind them, and come away from home for the purpose of securing an education that may be of advantage to them. Thus, those who have graduated in the colleges north have been from the poor families, and not from the wealthy, so that it is an advantage to send students abroad. I repudiate the idea that the north comes here asking this Territory for anything. I have studied economics enough to know that the populous centers always want to become to a state what Paris is to France. I comprehend fully that these large capital cities are like the eastern watershed, all draining into the {1356} Missouri, and

thence into the Mississippi, and thence into the Gulf of Mexico. We in the country understand that perfectly well; but we also understand that cities could not prosper unless there were country people who followed the plow, and who followed, therefore, agricultural pursuits. I, therefore, gentlemen of the Convention, stand just where I did Saturday, although, heretofore, I thought myself a strong unionist, but the more I hear this question discussed, the more I am convinced that these institutions ought to be apart and not joined, and I shall vote against this proposition to carry the university to Logan. I do not think it belongs there at all. I think it belongs where it is, and that the agricultural college belongs just where it is. And I disclaim this thought, too, that the people of the north have desired the university to be taken there, and I repudiate any such insinuation. It never has come from the people.

If, on the other hand, this body of men think it better to unite them and bring them here to Salt Lake, well and good, and I do not think it will affect very materially the vote on the Constitution. I do not think the people of the north are made of that kind of stuff at all, and it is possible that if you leave those buildings there, we could refer to them as the monument of the folly of the past, and perhaps we may invite our neighbor on the north to come down and occupy them, as they have no university building. I think likely they would be glad to join with us and build another institution there. Idaho is in our condition_very poor, and I refer to this matter, because the agricultural college has students from Idaho, from Montana, from Wyoming, and when you come to consider that fact, then it is centrally located, and you, gentlemen, know how far Logan is from Salt Lake_three hours. The idea that we could not take minerals from here to Logan and thus test them, that is no argument to me. Just one word on the water question; if we had a million dollars' worth of buildings on this bench, where is the guaranty of the water referred to? I remember that they wanted us to build the sugar factory up on the dry bench, but we thought we had better have an assured thing than a promise, and if I have read correctly, the chief question before the city council the other evening was how to increase the water supply of this city, and I do not think my memory fails me, when I refer back two or three years ago and see the lawns and the trees of this city burning up for want of water. You can remove the university to Logan without cost materially, if you so choose, and the agricultural college, so far as buildings are concerned, can take care of it without any effort whatever. Can you remove the college to Salt Lake City and take care of it? That is the question. One more proposition; thirty years ago I voted for an appropriation for the university, and I challenge this proposition before this honorable body of men, and while I am connected with the university, and as I stated before, it has my sympathy, I stand without any hesitancy in this declaration, that the university, backed up by all this population referred to by the speaker here, Mr. Cannon, does not show the progress that the agricultural college shows. In three years there has been built up in that north country a love of education that has not been built up here in ten years. You may have your capitol building on the hill, and your penitentiary on the left, and your fair buildings here, and we will contribute with our trade to keep those institutions going, we will maintain the friendliest possible relation with the city in which we also have a pride, because the city of Salt Lake is a part of Utah Territory, but, gentlemen, you in Salt Lake City and the surrounding counties here, in the sustaining of that university, have not testified your affection for education as {1357} the people of the north have done. It takes more than a legislative appropriation to build a school. It takes more than congressional grants to make a college or a university. You must have the people in that vicinity in full sympathy with it, working for it, and that is the history of the success of the agricultural

college and what it has gained in three years'.

I desire, while on my feet, to correct a statement made here the other day in reference to the attendance of the college now. I was appealed to as to the numbers that attended that school during the winter. Professor Paul tells me that the registered number was 357; I stated 360; I was out three. It was said that the present attendance was 145. He stated to me when I last saw him on Saturday that the present attendance is 265. Now, gentlemen, I do not think that the Legislature should be left to settle this question, but let this body settle it. I shall vote just as I voted on Saturday, for separation. Then, I would like to see the college established at Logan, so that the people who are working for it may continue to do so. If you leave it in doubt to be made a football by legislatures, as they change their political complexion, I fear that you will do one of the educational institutions of this Territory, if not two, very great damage, and whatever may be said of the capitol building, or of the penitentiary, or of the reform school or other State institutions, at least if we can, let us separate these two educational institutions from politics, and build them upon a foundation that we at least can refer to it with pride, if we may not make them compete in a few years with the eastern colleges. I do not think that the students from Utah will graduate in medicine or in law for a quarter of a century in Utah. If we had millions of money, it would not accomplish that. It takes an age. I can tell you that there are no schools in the United States that will satisfy some of the boys even now. The desire to go to college and they mean to go to the college, and they not only go to Harvard and Cornell, but they go to Berlin and to Oxford and Cambridge. These are my sentiments, and whatever this body decides to do, unite or separate, let us settle this question. I thank you, gentlemen. [Applause.]

Mr. GOODWIN. Mr. President, I think when we consider the character of the last gentleman who has spoken and the intensity of feeling which he displayed all the more by his efforts to repress it, it ought to be a sign to us that we are in rather deep water, notwithstanding the intimation that has been thrown out that this place is more or less short of water. I only want to ask a question. The progress of the university in this city has been for the last few years referred to and the charge has been made direct, that this city has made no such a demonstration in favor of education as has been made in the north. The gentleman is laboring under a mistake. We have done more for education in this city in the last five years than has been done in all the outside counties in this Territory for the last forty-seven years, and the reason the university has pot increased and improved and attained that eminence that it ought to is simply because the common schools and the high schools were neglected and the students that went to the university were not fit to be in the university.

Mr. THATCHER. Will the judge allow me to correct him on that point?

Mr. GOODWIN. Certainly.

Mr. THATCHER. I did not intend to refer in any manner to the district schools, but simply to these higher institutions, the agricultural college and the university.

Mr. GOODWIN. I understand, Mr. Thatcher, and that is why I am saying that this year there will be sixty graduates from our high school, next year {1358} over a hundred, three years hence,

there will be three hundred, and when those young men and young women get into the university, then you will hear something; simply because they will come prepared to take a university course. Only one more thing that I want to call your attention to. Boys will go from here and they will go from Logan, and they will go from the south to eastern and western colleges. They ought to, if their parents are able to send them, because all that a boy learns in school is only a little of what he knows in this world. The east is filled with educated men who are educated idiots. They draw a little horizon of their own around them and believe that the state of Massachusetts, or the state of Connecticut, or the state of Rhode Island, is the very end of the earth, and that a man that is born and reared outside of that is so unfortunate that he will never get over it, in all his life. They ought to be forced as soon as they graduate, if not before, to be turned into the west to rustle. And so I approve of the boys here going east for education, and that spirit is growing all over the east, and men of the east are thinking it will be better to send their sons west, that outside of the books they can learn the character of their fellow citizens in other cities.
That is why the university ought to be in this city, because Salt Lake City is better known east than Logan. It is probably because the bad is always more notorious than the good. There are people east that consider the climate and the other advantages of this region, who would be glad to send them here to be educated. They won't send them to Logan. Now, we hear that this city is all right, but it has to be supported by the country outside. That is, the people have to raise crops. That is not quite according to the standard of what this Convention ought to be. The man that works is the man that is entitled to respect, and it does not matter whether he is behind the plow or wields the pick, or for that matter, if he is engaged in making something that the man that follows the plow and that wields the pick needs, and if the effort is an effort of the brain, that is all the more honorable, because men that work their brains wear out sooner than those who simply work their bodies. But as to local pride in the matter, that ought to be waived. We ought not to do anything here that will create friction. I believe that this city, if let alone, will itself, through the natural generosity and public spirit of its people and the support which shall naturally come to it from the outside, build up here in course of time a magnificent university, and nothing but time will ever complete a university. When our high schools will begin to turn out their graduates we will take care of the university and stop all friction and all feeling. I move the indefinite postponement of both the amendment and the original motion.

Mr. VAN HORNE. Mr. President, I think that we should consider with some care the question of the indefinite postponement of these motions. I think we should consider very carefully the question of whether the good of our educational institutions is to be advanced by continued agitation, with regard to where they are located or to be located. I do not believe that it is in the interest of higher education in Utah that the institutions of higher education should have no local habitation or name. I believe that the sooner we determine_the people of our Territory determine where our institutions of learning shall be located, the sooner will begin that growth of higher education which we all desire. For that reason, I intend to oppose the indefinite postponement of this question. Gentlemen, it seems to me, without studying the question of the location of the university, one very important consideration has been left out, and that {1359} consideration is this, the reason why there has not been university growth has been indicated by the gentleman from Salt Lake. There was not the material to enter the university courses. You all know what the legislation of our Territory has been. It has provided for sending from different counties of the Territory students to the university, and part of whose expenses at least should be borne from the

territorial treasury. Unfortunately the system of schools in our Territory has been such that under such an arrangement as that, we found that they were scarcely able to enter a properly graded grammar school.

It was the discussion of such matters as that that led the educators of this town into the belief and the firm conviction that we should establish a system of graded schools here continuing on up into the high school, and making students of the high school so far advanced in learning that upon their graduation from the high school, they could become proper material for a university course. Matters of that kind take time, and the time is just ripe for us to have classes in a university who are competent to enter upon a university course. Now, gentlemen, the thing, as it seems to me, that has been omitted in this discussion is this, that as this high school rolls out this year sixty, next year a hundred, the year after that two hundred, the year after that three hundred graduates, who are ready to enter upon a university course, you must have a university for them in some way, and if the Territory does not provide it there will be a sectarian university of some kind started here to give the higher learning to those very pupils from our high schools. Gentlemen say that men should be sent away for their higher learning. Yes, when they can be sent away, by all manner of means. Interchange of citizens between one state and another_but that means money_that means resources on the part of those who are studying that not all of us can have. And gentlemen, the history of the great institutions, the history of Harvard, of Yale, and of Cornell, if you care to look at their catalogues, will show that they educate the people at their doors as their main work, and as their incidental work, their great character as institutions of learning bring to them from all over the country this, that, and the other man who is able to leave his home for the purpose of education.

Now, gentlemen, if we move away from the center of population, if we move from the center that furnishes the material_the students who can enter upon a university course, the university itself, and compel them to move away from home, in order to attend the university, they will attend, not the university of Utah, but they will attend Harvard, or Yale, or Cornell, or Columbia, or some other college, but in doing that you will say to them, “Gentlemen, you must have at your command three, four, five, six, seven, eight hundred dollars a year in order to enter upon this university course and attain the education that you desire.” Do we want to say to our people of Utah, “We will not furnish you in the most convenient place for your attendance a university that will teach you what you need at your homes, but will force you to move away and put upon you the inconvenience of moving away from your home to a university in Utah, or moving away from your home to a university outside of the boundaries of our State?” It seems to me such a policy as that would be futile and absurd. There are other questions with regard to location that it seems to me ought to be considered and many of them have been mentioned.

I call attention to one other, that the libraries of the Territory are in this city; aside from the professional and technical libraries here, there is a public library, containing some eight or ten {1360} thousand volumes, many books of reference that are rare and costly, that is completely at the use of the students of the university here. That is the universal custom in all centers of learning, that whatever libraries there may be, are thrown open to the students of the universities and colleges. Here we have what can be thrown open to them_another reason why the university itself should never be moved from this city. If, gentlemen, we had pursued throughout the course

of our work here in this Convention the uniform policy of leaving to the Legislature all that might properly be left to it, and attempting in no wise to interfere with their action, there might be greater weight in the argument that this is a legislative question and should be left to the Legislature, but I leave it to the candor of the delegates of this Convention if that has been the course pursued, and if it has not been the course pursued here, why on this question? This is one of agitation, it is one, as they say, that may degenerate into log rolling in this Convention; where we cannot trust the Legislature in other affairs, why should we trust them with the log rolling question of location of public institutions? Do gentlemen think a continued agitation before legislative bodies of this question of the location of an institution here or an institution there, or a consolidation here or a consolidation there, or a separation of the different departments of learning into branches at one or the other place, is a desirable thing to perpetuate in this new State of Utah?

I say, gentlemen, that wherever it may be that this Convention finally determines the site of the university and of the agricultural college, whether it decides they shall be united or separated, this body is as fairly representative of the people in that respect and knows as much about the question as any Legislature you are liable to get; and more than that, the uniform tendency of this body has been to say, “We are the people, wisdom will die with us, and we will settle the question for the people, and we had better do it.”

Thereupon the Convention took a recess until 2 o'clock p. m.

AFTERNOON SESSION.

Mr. ANDERSON. Mr. President and gentlemen of the Convention, in consideration of Mr. Peterson agreeing to withdraw his substitute, I wish to withdraw my amendment to his substitute.

Mr. PETERSON. Mr. President, I also wish to withdraw the substitute that I offered.

Mr. Chidester offered the following amendment to section 4:

Insert at the beginning of the section the words, “until otherwise provided by law.”

Mr. CHIDESTER. Mr. President, I do not wish to say anything on that. I merely wish to test the sense of the house.

Mr. EICHNOR. I would like to ask the gentleman from Garfield a question. Your amendment is “until otherwise provided by law.” Is that to qualify the whole section?

Mr. CHIDESTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EICHNOR. Or simply the location?

Mr. CHIDESTER. I think that is the effect of it.

Mr. CHIDESTER. Mr. President, I will withdraw the amendment with the consent of my second, for the reason that I think it goes too far.

Section 6 was read.

Mr. CANNON. Mr. President, this morning my understanding was that a proposition was favored by a number of gentlemen, providing for union, but leaving to the Legislature the matter of location. I am certainly in favor of that and I desire to introduce as a substitute for section 4, the following: “The university of Utah shall comprise all departments and institutes of higher learning in the public school system, including the school of mines, agricultural college, the state normal school, and such other departments and institutes as may be established by law, and shall be located as may be determined by the Legislature.”

Mr. HART. Mr. President, I arise to a point of order. We have passed that section and we are now considering section 6.

Mr. CANNON. Mr. President, I insist that the whole matter is open for amendment. We have the right to amend any part of this article that we see fit to do. The fact that it was passed for a moment would not debar us from changing anything that might be desirable to change.

The PRESIDENT. The chair will entertain the substitute.

Mr. HART. Mr. President, I just wished to make a remark on it first. If the chair please, we have adopted the section here both in committee of the whole and upon third reading. We are considering the propositions in the order in which they are presented, and after a section is passed it has been the unanimous custom here to pass it for the time being. The only contrary position we have taken or the only amendments that have been permitted to sections that are passed are after we have gone through the whole bill. Now,. Mr. President, if the gentleman wishes. to introduce his amendment, wait until we get to the last section. We have passed that for the time being. I understand that after we go through the third reading of each paragraph, one by one, to the end of the article, amendments can be made to propositions that have been passed, but if we

are going to dodge back from one section to the other after we have passed them, we will reverse the order that we have adopted heretofore and all parliamentary proceedings. Let the gentleman wait until we get through the third reading and then let him go back.

Mr. THORESON. Mr. President, I arise to a point of order. There is no. motion before the house. We are now considering section 7.

The PRESIDENT. The chair decided that he would entertain this substitute.

Mr. CANNON. Mr. President, I arise to a point of order. My point of order is that the gentleman from Cache is out of order. The chair ruled it was before the house.

Mr. CREER. I appeal from the ruling of the chair.

Mr. HALLIDAY. So do I.

Mr. CREER. I claim that it is the {1362} uniform rule in all legislative bodies in taking up bills on their third reading by sections that we must go along regularly by sections until we get through, and then the bill can be amended in any particular.

Mr. THURMAN. I hope the gentleman will withdraw his substitute until we get through the article.

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). I want to call attention of the chair and the Convention to a ruling made by the chair while the legislative article was under discussion. My next door neighbor here, after reading of the last section_the one offered by Mr. Varian, offered an amendment to it, and Mr. Varian raised the point of order then that no amendment to that section could be made as it had been passed before that time. The chair so ruled and that was the ruling of the house and the point of order taken by Mr. Varian was sustained. That was the decision of the house and should be the decision at this time, if we are to maintain the order as the chair has already announced it, else we will be at sea during the whole session of this Convention, as to what the rules of the house are.

Mr. CANNON. Do you interpret it, Mr. Kimball, that we cannot amend any section that we have passed?

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). No, sir. When we have read all of these sections, then you can go back to any one of them before the yeas and nays are taken.

Mr. CANNON. Mr. President, I simply withdraw this substitute and give notice that I wish to introduce it when the time comes.

Sections 7 and 8 were read.

Mr. KERR. Mr. President, I desire to offer the following as section 9, to come in between section

8 and section 9:

In cities of the first and second class, the public school system shall be maintained and controlled by the board of education of such cities, separate and apart from the counties in which said cities are located.

Mr. KERR. I desire to state by way of explanation that at present, cities of the first and second class have to get their money from the State and also the voters in the cities of the first and second class vote for the county superintendents, and yet these superintendents have absolutely nothing whatever to do with the city schools. It seems to me, therefore, these schools should be entirely separate from the county schools and independent of the county superintendent.

The proposed section was adopted.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I just Avant to call attention to the fact that section 8, as I recollect it, in some degree may conflict with a section in the executive article. That ought to be borne in mind and not lost sight of when we come to arrange the different articles. I think that article provides that the superintendent of public instruction shall have general supervision. I only speak of it that members

The PRESIDENT. That calls the attention of the chairman of the committee on compilation and arrangement to that, then.

Mr. VARIAN. Well, we ought to remember it.

Sections 9 and 10 were read.

Mr. RICKS. Mr. President, there is a point in section 10 I would like to call to the attention of the Convention, and that is commencing in line 2:

All property belonging to schools for the deaf and dumb, heretofore connected with the university of Utah, shall be transferred to said institution.

Mr. CANNON. I would like to ask the gentleman a question. As I understand it, there is a building that belongs to these institutions that will be stricken out by this provision. I am not on the committee. I do not know what the purpose of the committee was. I simply took it to be that they meant to remain with the university the building, if there is a building, connected with it, or something of that character.